Dump Batch Discussion Thread

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by sff_writer_dan

It's funny because if you use the definition of "dump" that includes like "Not feeling strictly bound to have each note map onto a distinct sound from the audio track" almost all the original songs in FFR were dumps :P

Not coincidentally, it's pretty much universally agreed upon that almost all the original files in FFR are huge pieces of shit.
To nobody's surprise, people like it when the arrows follow the music.

[WirryWoo]

Originally Posted by Lights

I don't think creating dumps "removes" any opportunities to do anything. The existing charting meta isn't going to suddenly shift away from technically focused charts just because we're not auto-rejecting dumps and / or allowing them to have their own batch and I'm sure theres going to continue to be high quality content produced that fits the traditional FFR style.

Apologies in advance for the blasphemy I'm about to spew but the modern 4key VSRG scene is a far cry from the vision FFR had when it was first created. And while the content being released on FFR today has clearly evolved along with it, its still a relatively narrow subsection of what can be created on this medium. And, from the perspective of a player, my goal is to have a good time playing fun charts. The music and expression of the music is secondary to this most of the time. I'm able to appreciate the artform of charting and recognize that the content FFR currently focuses on is fun, but I can only see it as a massive shame that a relatively prominent and popular genre of chart (in the greater 4key VSRG scene) is being rejected by so many people because it doesn't fit into this narrow subsection of "what has been".

Sure, I'm new to the community- I've got no ties to the older days of FFR and no real value towards preserving how things have traditionally been. From my perspective, though, FFR has been taking a lot of great steps forwards towards establishing itself as a more viable client to play on in the modern day (even in the short couple years i've been paying attention). I think expanding the type of content being offered is another important step in continuing this trend.

Is FFR around today to appeal to the older generation of players that grew up with it? Or does FFR want to try to establish a wider appeal and continue to grow all these years later?

The way I view dumps (which I’m not completely against, Rainshower is actually a well crafted dump file) is similar to the idea of going to a buffet and eating all options possible because they’re there. Would you enjoy the buffet experience? It depends on how much the song offers. Rainshower offers a small selection of options in the buffet so eating everything is tolerable in this case.

The point I’m raising is from the perspective of the song artist who we’ve all gone out to seek for permissions to use their work and not related to how FFR should remain outdated in the charting meta to cater to the older crowd. If a buffet potentially have many food options, is it intended for the chefs to go serve everything in their inventory to the hungry customers? They can if they want but in most buffets, that’s not the main goal. Similarly, in most cases, it’s not the main intention for the song artist to create content for FFR that calls for dump files. There are definitely exceptions to this rule (songs that are chaotic in nature like RATO) which would be fine stepped as dumps because it is T11’s intention to create that sort of chaotic content (which can be easily gauged from the music).

Originally Posted by sff_writer_dan

It's funny because if you use the definition of "dump" that includes like "Not feeling strictly bound to have each note map onto a distinct sound from the audio track" almost all the original songs in FFR were dumps :P

I only see Legacy files as outdated files which didn’t have exposure to new stepping capabilities like ArrowVortex and DDReam. If I recall correctly, these files are manually created by inserting steps in Notepad? Now that we have more advanced charting mediums, accomplishing creating improved content compared to older times is much more straightforward. I am not opposed to removing older files (or any files that are deemed low quality) that don’t fit current standards of stepping and having it be fun to play, but I think that’s one controversial opinion I will continue to hold and will always receive push back when I actively make that heard lmfao.

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by WirryWoo

I only see Legacy files as outdated files which didn’t have exposure to new stepping capabilities like ArrowVortex and DDReam. If I recall correctly, these files are manually created by inserting steps in Notepad? Now that we have more advanced charting mediums, accomplishing creating improved content compared to older times is much more straightforward. I am not opposed to removing older files (or any files that are deemed low quality) that don’t fit current standards of stepping and having it be fun to play, but I think that’s one controversial opinion I will continue to hold and will always receive push back when I actively make that heard lmfao.

I actually think the comparison between dumps and how we currently handle Legacy files is a great one. Files with arrows that don't follow the music can just go in a different category. They can still be there to be enjoyed by anyone who wants to play them, but make it clear they are in a set separate from the synced files. That's really all I've wanted from the start of all this.
Put some of the current files in FFR that are dumpy into the separate category too, for example I would definitely support moving my Caffeine and Call me it. (500 Tortures) files to a dump category.

[WirryWoo]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I actually think the comparison between dumps and how we currently handle Legacy files is a great one. Files with arrows that don't follow the music can just go in a different category. They can still be there to be enjoyed by anyone who wants to play them, but make it clear they are in a set separate from the synced files. That's really all I've wanted from the start of all this.
Put some of the current files in FFR that are dumpy into the separate category too, for example I would definitely support moving my Caffeine and Call me it. (500 Tortures) files to a dump category.

I also agree with this. I think the biggest question marks here would be, how would skill ratings and ranks be accessed here? Either we’d need to make multiple ratings (which would naturally make the ratings associated with dumps the most official due to how nowadays, most people in the community care about a high division player’s performance on dumps who are also the vocal minority) or we officialize one (where there will be many disagreements within the vocal minority of the community, which we hardly ever reach any actionable conclusions from any conversation to be had). I know someone’s not going to be happy with this idea haha.

But this currently doesn’t need an answer now as I’m starting to digress from the initial conversation. Just some food for thought.

[M0nkeyz]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I actually think the comparison between dumps and how we currently handle Legacy files is a great one. Files with arrows that don't follow the music can just go in a different category. They can still be there to be enjoyed by anyone who wants to play them, but make it clear they are in a set separate from the synced files. That's really all I've wanted from the start of all this.
Put some of the current files in FFR that are dumpy into the separate category too, for example I would definitely support moving my Caffeine and Call me it. (500 Tortures) files to a dump category.

I agree with this, but it doesn't have to be in its own category a [D] or [Dump] tag is enough imo.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by WirryWoo

The way I view dumps (which I’m not completely against, Rainshower is actually a well crafted dump file) is similar to the idea of going to a buffet and eating all options possible because they’re there. Would you enjoy the buffet experience? It depends on how much the song offers. Rainshower offers a small selection of options in the buffet so eating everything is tolerable in this case.

The point I’m raising is from the perspective of the song artist who we’ve all gone out to seek for permissions to use their work and not related to how FFR should remain outdated in the charting meta to cater to the older crowd. If a buffet potentially have many food options, is it intended for the chefs to go serve everything in their inventory to the hungry customers? They can if they want but in most buffets, that’s not the main goal. Similarly, in most cases, it’s not the main intention for the song artist to create content for FFR that calls for dump files. There are definitely exceptions to this rule (songs that are chaotic in nature like RATO) which would be fine stepped as dumps because it is T11’s intention to create that sort of chaotic content (which can be easily gauged from the music).



I only see Legacy files as outdated files which didn’t have exposure to new stepping capabilities like ArrowVortex and DDReam. If I recall correctly, these files are manually created by inserting steps in Notepad? Now that we have more advanced charting mediums, accomplishing creating improved content compared to older times is much more straightforward. I am not opposed to removing older files (or any files that are deemed low quality) that don’t fit current standards of stepping and having it be fun to play, but I think that’s one controversial opinion I will continue to hold and will always receive push back when I actively make that heard lmfao.

I like the last paragraph here, and would totally vote to have one of my files there 'cause somehow the sync was off by a 64th.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I actually think the comparison between dumps and how we currently handle Legacy files is a great one. Files with arrows that don't follow the music can just go in a different category. They can still be there to be enjoyed by anyone who wants to play them, but make it clear they are in a set separate from the synced files. That's really all I've wanted from the start of all this.
Put some of the current files in FFR that are dumpy into the separate category too, for example I would definitely support moving my Caffeine and Call me it. (500 Tortures) files to a dump category.

I just want a clarification (i've only had time to read two of your posts sorry if I missed it) but by putting them into a different catagory how would you approach ranking them in level ranks?

[Lights]

Originally Posted by M0nkeyz

I agree with this, but it doesn't have to be in its own category a [D] or [Dump] tag is enough imo.

In support of some form of visual indication that a file is dumped. So long as I don't have to navigate additional menus to go from playing a dump to a non dump and back, the visual indication is largely an overall positive if for nothing else than to know the type of file youre going to be playing beforehand. Tags are a good suggestion.

An altogether seperate category thats hidden from view or that behaves differently from the current song-list, i'd strongly oppose.

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by XelNya

I just want a clarification (i've only had time to read two of your posts sorry if I missed it) but by putting them into a different catagory how would you approach ranking them in level ranks?

I personally wouldn't want them ranked, but I know a lot of people do. I don't really care in this regard.
I would suggest two different ranking systems but that seems pretty pointless when from the playing side the skillsets are basically identical, it's just the content of the levels. And besides, based on the attitude of the community, the Dumps Included leaderboard one would instantly become the "one that matters" anyway, so might as well let them be ranked in the first place.

[XelNya]

I'm just gonna retread the thread since I was last here.

Originally Posted by Lights

On what grounds should dumps be segregated from the existing content on FFR?

You're just drawing an arbitrary line in the sand based on your own preferences and imposing it onto others- if you don't like dumps, dont play them. nobody is forcing you to play content you don't personally enjoy.

We actually have a precident for the segregation of content, such as the Legacy files, and even Tokens not being in public ranks. Both of which are things I support, and they hold true here. I'd also seperate them out.

From later on:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

...this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

Accuratly hits my own feelings on this. Not maybe the osumania part, because not only do I have a bit more faith in... most of the current judges - but the folks at the helm are trying to give direction and actually do what I've wanted for a while - make FFR an actual game rather than just an engine.

But in other words, I hope this:

Originally Posted by Psychotik

You keep assuming like these charts won't be judged to the same quality standards as regular charts. If anything, these will likely be more closely scrutinized for quality and consistency as they will be the first official ones.

Rings more true than false.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

Everybody in this thread arguing whether dumps are "good" - that's not the question.
Obviously dumps are good to have in the community: they're fun, they open up song and pattern choice, they're easy to make so you can make more levels and more people can participate in stepping, there's obviously plenty of good sides to it.

I've never once said having dumps available in a separate playlist or alternate engine was ever bad, in fact I think it's great.

The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list?
Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

Can't say I at all times would have agreed with everything here, we certainly know I've had some fucking brain-rot level takes about file making, But I pretty much agree with this whole thing.

Klim as a complete side note, I actually encourage you to go play, or at least, look through some of the more dump-oriented files from Etterna. I pretty much sat where you do right now, but after ditching FFR for a long time and chatting with some folks who showed me stuff and explained it so even my brain-rot gets it, you could totally see something more cool, and even see the more "art" styled content that can be made with dumping.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I do not have faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.

Originally Posted by Tru

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'd of course want to know why. FFR staff in general is pretty flexible/open to ideas. Can dm me to not derail the thread if you want.

Listen, I agree with Hi19 that sometimes I get super pessimistic about the judgeteam (I currently think at least one of them is a fucking idiot) and given that I don't think any judge currently primarily has dumps as their strong suit, I kind of get his point. Would be nice if we could pick up a judge that is. I guess is my contribution to the chat here.

Originally Posted by Wiosna

... I think this is just rude tbh. osu!mania's charting community is imo pretty dire for multiple reasons and I don't think FFR is anywhere near that point. I won't say that osu!mania is necessarily filled with derivative work, but I think the osu!mania scene is trying to find its own identity and the game being a safe haven for dumps is misguided. I also think that FFR, even when you look strictly at the dumps that people in this community have made, are much closer to tech files with ghost note elements, so think closer to Rainshower than... the archetypal dump file that you can think of, really.

I see the dump batch as more of an attempt at inclusivity. Speaking from personal experience as someone who is relatively "new" to the FFR stepping scene (I mostly stepped for osu!mania and Etterna before this), I definitely felt as if a good portion of my style wasn't going to be accepted because of how much I use ghost notes as a form of layering -- whether it would be a Sharpnel-esque JS dump or bursts to bass wobbles (which have pronounced peaks, but there's still only one attack per wobble). I've butted heads with judges a few times over this, and it's piled on by the fact that judges are inconsistent in judging these files. It's immensely frustrating.

I would get an 8.5/10 from one judge, but I could get a 5-5.5/10 from a different judge for a very similar file -- with the latter judge basically saying that they generally don't agree with the approach at hand. You can argue that this is a judge issue more than anything, but the fact that my files have to go through more hoops than the average file is, admittedly, emotionally draining for me, and I would've liked a much less ambiguous judgment (either yes or no, though "yes" would be better) rather than thinking about whether it would be worth it to submit a file like that that I'm happy with and feel that players would enjoy. Being told unambiguously that Rainshower was more or less greenlighted by multiple judges was relieving to me, and I wouldn't want ambiguity to be an issue that more contemporary stepartists will face for picking up a relatively new trend in stepping.

And this isn't really talking about players' views on the matter: Many players do enjoy the output that I've made a lot across every community that I've posted those files in (Ideal Ratio, Rainshower, Writing on the Walls, even some of the Sharpnel files). And they don't really consider these files to be "dumps" proper these days because the files are so commonplace outside of FFR. And with the bulk of FFR players coming from other rhythm game communities these days, I think it makes more sense to have its judging philosophy (and in turn, the output that represent the game) partially align with most communities at hand. osu!mania and Etterna still have different judging criteria for dumps across stepartists and judges (no judges on EO obviously but they "exist" in o!m).



I (think I) know what you're trying to say here with dump files not being on sync by definition -- but I think it's presumptuous to say that just because a dump file isn't synced in the conventional sense (notes placed to attacks and only attacks) doesn't mean that it should be a file in-game. Most dumps have notes to peaks rather than strictly attacks, which again, does have a notably different feeling of gameplay (a misuse of this can lead to a file being very loose and tenuous to play through) and is a bit dicier to judge than more literal files, but I find it hard-pressed to think about whether that's necessarily a thing that should exclude a style from the game -- even ones that were executed very well. It seems like a trade-off thing that judges have to consider, which I think is manageable, though I think that there will be pitfalls in judging here and there all the same that judges will face. In that sense, I definitely see the lack of faith in maintaining judge standards, because it does require additional criteria for assessment.

I would love to talk to you about dumps and certain reservations with it further (I'm Alice in the Discord server, the idiot with the salmon-coloured hair anime girl avatar) because, admittedly, I think the gap in philosophy to be intriguing and I ultimately want to see what exactly the rift is for certain stepartists. It's something that I've done before for other communities as well (I was one of the main proponents to get people to accept dumps for the ranked section in osu!mania, though I don't really like the direction that it's going on a personal level because of a poor assessment criteria), so maybe there's a productive discussion to be had at some point.

(By paragraph
1. FFR might not be there yet, but misacceptance of bad work (which he's actively shown is pretty much his biggest concern here) would be the fast-track way to accelerate there. Hi19's right and that we could end there very quickly.
2. See earlier comment of a judge having a dump oriented style being missing is probably one of the biggest problems here. But to be fair - this is how FFR's judging has always been. You kinda get lucky with a judge who gets you sometimes, and sometimes you get ass blasted by stupid choices.
3. Just wait till you have a song rejected three times for the song choice. Sure wish we'd done more of that in recent times. /sarcasm because folks here would miss it otherwise
4. Don't really have much to add here, so, fuck osu.
5. To really sumerize my thoughts here again, as long as the "dumnp" has a structure, and some basic rules that a player can pickup on, such as "this buzz is a 32nd, this one that is slower is a 24th, regardless how it would actively line up, it would be hard for me personally, to reject it.
6. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, it'd be really to get some like, interviews with some of the simauthors here on this site, fuck I might actually have to do it now.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I personally wouldn't want them ranked, but I know a lot of people do. I don't really care in this regard.
I would suggest two different ranking systems but that seems pretty pointless when from the playing side the skillsets are basically identical, it's just the content of the levels. And besides, based on the attitude of the community, the Dumps Included leaderboard one would instantly become the "one that matters" anyway, so might as well let them be ranked in the first place.

Worded it better than I could have probably.

[Lights]

What would not ranking these files or putting them in separate leaderboards really hope to achieve though? Clearly, theres demand for this content. Clearly, theres a significant chunk of players that enjoy this content.

Saying "fine, we'll let them in, but they can't interact with any of the core aspects of FFR or be seen around the rest of the files" is only one step past "no, get these dumps out of here" and I don't see really who this would serve or benefit. Certainly not the players whom this content is ultimately being added for?

If a file is deemed acceptable to be added into the game and the difficulty of the file is sane enough to be rated on the rating scale, it should be treated the same as every other file with regards to the game's leaderboards, average rank, etc.- even legacy files are factored into this and there is much more thats fundamentally wrong with them (by traditional FFR judging standards) than a well made dump file. Most of them would be laughed out of the batch if submitted today.

And furthermore, I'm not keen on the comparison between dumps and legacy files- some of the legacy content doesn't even make sense and doesn't come close to fitting any benchmark as being a well made file. Sure, there were much heavier limitations at play for their creation than someone today popping into arrow vortex or a similar editor, but that doesn't change the fact that, for many, nothing is properly timed, theres no real attempt at coherent structure, and the patterning choices are bland and in many cases incredibly spiky in nature. These files have very little in common with a well made serious dump file and in no world do I think we should be seriously considering them as comparable entities on FFR.

[bmah]

I feel as if dumps attack FFR's identity, not that FFR had much of an mechanics-based identity that differentiated it from other rhythm games in the first place. The resistance against putting dumps side by side to normal files is because it brings the game closer to other simulator VSRGs, and in turn REDUCES the uniqueness of FFR. It's not that such files lack merit; it's that FFR has less and less that makes it attractively different from other games, besides maybe a lack of hold arrows. I'd love for FFR to invent a whole new mechanic, but we lack the resources to really make something totally new that stands out. Currently, what makes FFR unique has more to do with what types of charts the game has to offer as opposed to a gameplay-based distinction (except no holds of course). A lot of FFR's past identity was unfortunately based more on limitations rather than innovations. Some of these limitations that were resolved I think greatly improved FFR as a whole, such as weaning ourselves off of framer-based gameplay. But I'm not entirely sure how much FFR would benefit from dumps, though I'm totally willing to have them in the game as a separate category. To place them side by side with normal files is to introduce homogeneity to FFR's identity.

To me, dump files forces us to rethink FFR's identity, how much people even care about identity anymore, and if FFR's overall growth as a site and community can continue with limitations on potential innovations. Dumps to me is one more step towards a lack of uniqueness - but it remains to be seen whether new folks will choose FFR versus other VSRGs in the future. We're certainly getting a lot of new players currently, but they're mainly from pre-existing rhythm gaming communities and I'd like to see some more organic growth. At the very least, dumps are just catering to the echo chamber of seasoned rhythm gamers and we're not really doing much to make it attractive for new, novice players.
Overall, we're looking more inwards than we are outwards IMO.

[sff_writer_dan]

To me, dump files forces us to rethink FFR's identity, how much people even care about identity anymore, and if FFR's overall growth as a site and community can continue with limitations on potential innovations.

Almost every "top player" on the site isn't from here, and has played far fewer than 50 of the nearly 3000 songs in the game.

Does an identity even matter in that context? Like...pointing development at top players when most of them just wander by to break all the records and then go back to their previous game seems just as lacking in a real identity.

[bmah]

Even more of a reason to put greater focus towards organic growth rather than giving dumps for top players from pre-existing VSRGs to come and leave. You're right - many only have a temporary presence here and I can barely consider that actual growth towards the site.

[sff_writer_dan]

The issue is just...from where do you think we can get organic growth if not "From the people invested enough in other VSRGs to be into the genre enough to go looking for other places to do it"?

[bmah]

The organic growth comes from casuals, the general public. So I view folks like high-levelled players to be influencers in a sense, especially if they display their skills in videos, streams, and so on.

[Lights]

Originally Posted by bmah

I feel as if dumps attack FFR's identity, not that FFR had much of an mechanics-based identity that differentiated it from other rhythm games in the first place. The resistance against putting dumps side by side to normal files is because it brings the game closer to other simulator VSRGs, and in turn REDUCES the uniqueness of FFR. It's not that such files lack merit; it's that FFR has less and less that makes it attractively different from other games, besides maybe a lack of hold arrows. I'd love for FFR to invent a whole new mechanic, but we lack the resources to really make something totally new that stands out. Currently, what makes FFR unique has more to do with what types of charts the game has to offer as opposed to a gameplay-based distinction (except no holds of course). A lot of FFR's past identity was unfortunately based more on limitations rather than innovations. Some of these limitations that were resolved I think greatly improved FFR as a whole, such as weaning ourselves off of framer-based gameplay. But I'm not entirely sure how much FFR would benefit from dumps, though I'm totally willing to have them in the game as a separate category. To place them side by side with normal files is to introduce homogeneity to FFR's identity.

To me, dump files forces us to rethink FFR's identity, how much people even care about identity anymore, and if FFR's overall growth as a site and community can continue with limitations on potential innovations. Dumps to me is one more step towards a lack of uniqueness - but it remains to be seen whether new folks will choose FFR versus other VSRGs in the future. We're certainly getting a lot of new players currently, but they're mainly from pre-existing rhythm gaming communities and I'd like to see some more organic growth. At the very least, dumps are just catering to the echo chamber of seasoned rhythm gamers and we're not really doing much to make it attractive for new, novice players.
Overall, we're looking more inwards than we are outwards IMO.

So, you do raise a strong point that this would cut down on the uniqueness of FFR as a client- there is a lot of truth to the statement. However, I don't necessarily agree that its as big of a problem as some may perceive it to be.

Hi, Non-native fifferian here! allow me to share my experience coming to FFR from an outside source and why I tend to stick around- The community, the (relative to other VSRGs) unique take on scoring via raw goods, the events such as the OT, FFRMas, and previous OWL tournament, and all the different systems of tracking progression. (equiv rating lifetime / seasonal, AV-rank, skill tokens, even tier points). Those are ordered from most to least relevant btw.

By far, the most appealing part of FFR is the community. When compared to similar rhythm games theres no contest, the people here are generally rather friendly and mature and quite frankly the game could be like it was in 2005 and i'd still at least be here to hang out. But beyond being full of good company:

Raw goods is a fun scoring metric thats a lot less ambiguous than some seemingly arbitrarily calculated osu!mania score value or a wife3%, it feels like every error has a lot more weight to it and it introduces, to me, a different way to approach playing. Or at the very least, a different way to set scoring goals.

Obviously I don't need to explain why the events around here are appealing, nor all the different numbers FFR chooses to track, but I can summarize it as FFR having a lot of "minigames" built into the same overall gameplay. theres a deceptively diverse set of things going on. maybe this week youre equiv grinding, then you have a session working on token unlocks or tierpoints and now hey, new tournament / event is starting soon. Sure, osu!mania has its fair share of tournaments, but honestly I think FFR does them better and certainly has more variety in format.

All of this is to say that theres more to FFRs outward appeal than the charts on the engine. A lot of the content on FFR I had previously been exposed to before I really knew what FFR was via etterna packs and to me they just came off as just another file to be played. I never came here to experience this unique set of content because, to me, it already wasnt that unique to begin with and i didn't realize that the content on here was of a very specific type and grade until someone eventually told me. With the benefit of more time and playing more files, sure, theres a strong tendency to some more technical content which is less common on some rhythm games, but I cant say it was ever an influencing factor in what initially prompted me to pick up the game. It was those things I mentioned above, there being dumps in the list of charts wouldn't have even factored into the decision making process.

Sure, I'm only one person, everyones experience and priorities are going to vary- If nothing else, I hope it at least contextualizes the angle I'm coming at this from.

[WirryWoo]

Originally Posted by sff_writer_dan

The issue is just...from where do you think we can get organic growth if not "From the people invested enough in other VSRGs to be into the genre enough to go looking for other places to do it"?

This organic growth can be achieved by building relationships with song artists who have trusted us to use their music in game via the permissions we asked for. Having this continued relationship with song artists will bring their followers to the game, which helps cast a larger net to the public and solidifies FFR’s initial identity of being a rhythm game medium to connect new artists with the public (at least this is what I strongly believe are the differences across other rhythm games). It would be really cool to have strong ties with high scale musicians at the degree similar to our relationship with KURORAK, where we can collaborate with him to create songs specifically for FFR at a commissioned price. I remembered through a recent conversation with one of the oldest players on FFR (and a close FFRiend of mine), there was a separate engine devoted to host community created files with MySpace music for $10 per file. I think events like this really create a strong community of players who are super passionate about helping song artists become more successful which is really cool. It also creates stronger ties with the song artists to rely on our rhythm gaming medium for more publicity and it builds trust for new artists we currently don’t have permissions for to consider FFR as a medium for their publicity, helping us secure more permissions and increasing the variety of our music.

This is at least where I thought FFR’s true identity lie and this is why I primarily disagree with having dumps in game. Imagine getting permissions from Silvia and seeing the majority of their discography be publicized on a rhythm gaming medium as step files of similar quality to Vertex BETA vrofl. Because the steps are essentially filler noise in dump files, I stand by my disagreement of having dumps in game because “dumps miss many opportunities to acknowledge music rhythmically as intended”. Also in this hypothetical situation, from Silvia’s perspective, it can easily be interpreted as disrespectful for stepcharts to fail to acknowledge the rhythms observed by listening to the music. Having the player base play these maps further reinforces that because players will associate their music as that “dump file on FFR” (we saw that trend with Death Piano back then).

Dumps are fine when the music is intended to sound “dumpy” (no negative connotation implied here, rather using dumpy as an adjective to say that the music warrants a very challenging file similar to other dumps in game), but because most music isn’t like that, I believe that dumps should be generally discouraged on FFR. I personally dislike music that sound “dumpy” to me because it is displeasing to my ears, so having too many dumps will only attract a certain crowd of people which is not what we want.

[Wiosna]

With all due respect to everyone here: please stop comparing dumps that would be accepted in the dump batch to vROFL in any capacity. Make a better comparison. It's heavily insulting to judges and stepartists no matter how you slice it and no matter where you stand on how (in)competent the aforementioned people are.

I don't have anything else to say on the matter because I've been in DMs with relevant people about the topic and issues that are related to judging.

[WirryWoo]

Originally Posted by Wiosna

With all due respect to everyone here: please stop comparing dumps that would be accepted in the dump batch to vROFL in any capacity. Make a better comparison. It's heavily insulting to judges and stepartists no matter how you slice it and no matter where you stand on how (in)competent the aforementioned people are.

I don't have anything else to say on the matter because I've been in DMs with relevant people about the topic and issues that are related to judging.

Apologies for making that comparison. I literally woke up at the time of writing that and it was the first thing that came to mind when writing my response. Despite making a poor comparison, my opinions still hold.

To song artists who in most cases aren't so experienced with rhythm gaming, vROFL and other dumps appear similarly to them so I am mainly speaking from their perspective. This isn't implying that all accepted dumps in Dump Batch are of similar quality to vROFL (and it is not what I'm implying by mentioning it).

[XelNya]

By paragraph again:

Originally Posted by Lights

What would not ranking these files or putting them in separate leaderboards really hope to achieve though? Clearly, theres demand for this content. Clearly, theres a significant chunk of players that enjoy this content.

Saying "fine, we'll let them in, but they can't interact with any of the core aspects of FFR or be seen around the rest of the files" is only one step past "no, get these dumps out of here" and I don't see really who this would serve or benefit. Certainly not the players whom this content is ultimately being added for?

If a file is deemed acceptable to be added into the game and the difficulty of the file is sane enough to be rated on the rating scale, it should be treated the same as every other file with regards to the game's leaderboards, average rank, etc.- even legacy files are factored into this and there is much more thats fundamentally wrong with them (by traditional FFR judging standards) than a well made dump file. Most of them would be laughed out of the batch if submitted today.

And furthermore, I'm not keen on the comparison between dumps and legacy files- some of the legacy content doesn't even make sense and doesn't come close to fitting any benchmark as being a well made file. Sure, there were much heavier limitations at play for their creation than someone today popping into arrow vortex or a similar editor, but that doesn't change the fact that, for many, nothing is properly timed, theres no real attempt at coherent structure, and the patterning choices are bland and in many cases incredibly spiky in nature. These files have very little in common with a well made serious dump file and in no world do I think we should be seriously considering them as comparable entities on FFR.

My point was mostly that we already have a system for separating things out, which contradicted something you'd said.

1. Again, with Legacy and Tokens being removed this argument is preemptively moot. And before you ask why I'm good with keeping tokens out: AntiPA requirements remain as a barrier of inaccessibility. They're horribly specific at points, and the jokes for some of them are lost to history and don't actually matter. Not to mention event tokens. There's no reason to merge them in the current state of the structure. Legacy is... Self explained I would hope.
2. As this is new territory, this approach is actually the safe and correct one until the standards are set, the difficulty ratings worked out, and issues the community has are ironed out. You're forgetting staff are just implementing this, and we currently get to talk about it. May as well meet in the middle with the choices made here.
3. Comparing Legacy to certain dump styles would be a very one to one comparison. Some don't actually make sense, would be fun to some regardless, if not even maybe highly regarded. You're also forgetting SOME FILES never actually went through the proper judgement system (thanks Aj / Kayla / OT's in general.) So not even every modernly ranked file should even be here. My point is that you're not accounting for any number of ways garbage has gotten into the game with your comment. (Some of this is my own feelings, of course.)
4. See 3. Though if you wanna talk about spiky files, we have plenty, so this should never come as a surprise to FFR players. There's a lot of content that has randomly daft patterning, my own work suffers from this a lot at times.

But to answer your question at what separating them out does, it allows FFR to not only allow them in, and grow the idea, maybe even mature it, but not force it till it's ready and good to go.

It's a nice best of all worlds in my opinion. Though maybe I'm wrong. Etterna allows anything to be ranked within some rules, and that seems to work well. So I might be pretty wrong. Maybe I'm just too boomer here. I could be ok with that tbh. osu despite how fucking much I think that place is a cesspit of fucking garbage, is doing really well, so maybe there's something to learn there.