KeyBeatOnline.com

[Phynx]

I dunno, I figured the inactivity on KBO would allow you to open up more to things Boofang but damn , I see things haven't changed. Lol I admit, your persistence is admirable but your lack of acceptance and open mindedness to new ideas still blows me away. I wanted to turn KBO into a trendsetter in the industry but your ideals actively disengage peoples interest in the game.

[darkshark]

^ This. Could not agree more.

[Arch0wl]

I've talked with stargroup about this on AIM a bit so I understand his motivation a bit more.

While grand totals are useful in the short-run, in the long-run they will act as a disincentive much in the same way grades currently do. Over time, you'll have something of a grandtotal aristocracy, and players will think "there's no way I'm going to beat that" in the same way that they would with grades.

However, weekly and monthly totals are still on the board. These give players something of a clean slate, allowing new players to feel like they have a chance. This incentive system works similar to the batch system in FFR, which as you know works pretty well.

I've tossed the idea of badges you can get for being in the top of the weekly/monthly totals, so we'll see.

[Arch0wl]

Also, about noteskins. I don't like that idea -- and I think stargroup doesn't either -- because it gives the impression that we're Stepmania and that we are simply an alternate play mode of that program. We want people to come to the game with a blank slate so that they can think about KBO as KBO, not as a DDR mod.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

Also, about noteskins. I don't like that idea -- and I think stargroup doesn't either -- because it gives the impression that we're Stepmania and that we are simply an alternate play mode of that program. We want people to come to the game with a blank slate so that they can think about KBO as KBO, not as a DDR mod.

That's kind of a hopeless endeavor as long as it's a music game with receptors at the top. Making the notes into circles is a good start I guess.

[Jousway]

I made other noteskins for KBO
http://jousway.co.uk/Unlimited_Stepm..._Noteskin/KBO/

edit: I would like a list of all the thing I can do with xml for kbo noteskins so I can make shit better
also if it had scripting like lua for example I could proably make shit way better

[Arch0wl]

Izzy, you'd think so, but arrows are pretty much synonymous with DDR (and to a lesser extent FFR). It's very much like the association everyone would have for my console if I introduced a stick-based motion sensor. Circles and orbs are brand-neutral; they're used in so many music games and for so many different instruments on those games that no one thinks of anything in particular when they're used.

[Reincarnate]

Blowmang: Grand totals are only a problem if you're waving them in everyone's face and attaching some sort of meaningful goal to them that would discourage newbies or make the game somehow zero-sum in terms of ability to gain reward.

Look at a site like Kongregate. You've got guys with thousands upon thousands of points, hundreds of badges ahead, hours of experience more than you, hugely impossible levels, etc, but this doesn't discourage new players from having something to strive for because there are rewards every step of the way that don't have any barriers to entry.

People like having huge checklists. It's why MMO's are successful, why Achievement systems work so well, and why we typically enjoy playing fun games with thorough completion.

tl;dr don't be an idiot, grand totals can be useful metrics. It's not the ONLY metric you should include, but it's still something, and I think it's retarded to say "I don't want to include it for ethical reasons." The hell are you talking about? There's nothing that goes against ethics here, nor is there anything that provides artificial game-inflation or hollow content in the same way that a carrot-on-a-string MMO might employ.

And, let's face it, KBO can't afford to be picky right now.

[Arch0wl]

I've actually written a lot about how KBO needs to implement more reward systems and achievement systems, especially a quasi item system at some point. I don't know which priority precedes what or how long it is until it could be a reality, but it's definitely something I think needs to happen.

[qqwref]

As far as ethics goes, it's only something to consider if everyone agrees something is unethical. The whole reason for not doing unethical things is that other people will look at them, notice they're unethical, and think less of you for it. But in the case of grandtotal, nobody seems to agree with stargroup. Practically every big community-driven video game has it in some form, and when most people notice it's not a part of KBO, they will be disappointed, not glad. I do understand the personal reasons for not wanting that statistic there, but that's all they are, personal reasons. If your goal is to make a successful game, that conflict is just something that will have to be dealt with. You may not like it, but if it's how the world works, you just have to accept it.

About the difference between weekly/monthly totals and grandtotals, I think a short-term total encourages short-term play (such as whoring the game for a few days), but doesn't encourage long-term play, which you absolutely need to get good at a rhythm game like this. Especially at the very start, there are only a few easy files you can comfortably play, so you end up doing them over and over again (and not even getting very good scores on them), which can get frustrating. It's a lot easier to play some other game with no learning curve - how about a nice shooter or tower defense or puzzle game? - so you need something that a low-level player can work towards and be proud of, something that won't go away in a month and render their work worthless. You want a reason someone will come back and keep playing the next week, even though there are no new songs and they haven't noticeably improved. And ideally it's something that will develop the player's skills as they work on it. Grandtotal does all of that, and it's easy and familiar.

tl;dr: You might be unhappy with grandtotal in the game, but nobody else is. Not having it hurts new casual players, and a periodic grandtotal doesn't completely fill the gap.


And hey, if you want submissions, sorry, but I can't help you there. I suck too hard at stepping.

[Reincarnate]

Having a large selection of easy, easy files is also a good start

[Phynx]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Wall of Text

Holy shit this omg thank you Rubix. THIS says so much that Bufang needs to pay attention to. >____<!!

[Secks69]

Bufang, quit being a dick

[Arch0wl]

Yeah, let's avoid turning this into the mindlessly-bash-stargroup thread.

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by Sprite-

Let's add an adventure mode!

Originally Posted by zolaric

With multiplayer co-op mode !!

I know you guys are joking, but that would actually be fun.

[stargroup100]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

I know you guys are joking, but that would actually be fun.

We were only quarter-joking. Concepts are already in the works.

Unfortunately, they are long-term because you won't see them until well after beta release, but these are definitely being worked on.

[Reincarnate]

teedly deedly dinky dink ringalingadingdong

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

teedly deedly dinky dink ringalingadingdong

Go back to Kongregate.


..and take me with you.

[Reincarnate]

I am everywhere

[Hakulyte]

I am everyone

More seriously, I'm a living proof that Grandtotal matters and I'm very curious about what you think could replace it in order to achieve a similar level of interest for players who eventually get stuck at a point and need an indicator that they're actually "getting somewhere". I mean, while video games recently are using cheap means like cute graphics to attract people and achievements to keep them busy. You'll have to try to come up with something similar but different to have a similar purpose if you want to keep people while being "ethical". If you manage that, you just pwned the current biggest companies on the world that are about to get punch in the face by people getting tired of being considered like monkeys. Oh wait- I believe we already have those companies got hacked threads.