Need some opinions

[Arkuski]

You admins absolutely need to lay down the law now so that an argument like this does not happen in the future.

Personally, I see both sides of the argument. I actually like Vote4Nixon's files and I would hate to see them go. He should have been aware that he was relinquishing his right to the files once he submitted them, but then again, it should have been spelled out more clearly. However, if he wanted to possibly rework the files for quality reasons, I think it would be appreciated by all.

[TC_Halogen]

Files shouldn't be removed from game unless there is an absolute necessity for the files to be removed -- extenuating circumstances like permission issues from the song artists, or technical errors with the simfile itself are issues that could be considered (for example, I wouldn't be against removing TGWP v2 due to lack of playability). Removing a file based off of negative commentary received or because of personal dislike is absolutely asinine and should not be considered.

Considering that there are non-distribution rules in place to prevent official FFR files from being replicated/spread after release, it could easily be said that you lose the rights to that particular simfile. There are many applicable examples of when this happens, like creating content for a company -- when you create artwork/designs for a company under a NDA, that work becomes the work of the company you worked for. Regardless of what your overall opinion is, if you dislike what you created and the company likes it, you can't rescind your content and ask for your money back. FFR submissions have the exact same contingencies -- you can create the content under the impression to be used for the game, but there is nothing saying that it will or won't be in game. Once it is in game, you are credited appropriately, but the file belongs to and is associated with FFR.

If a simfile artist has an issue with the negative reception that they are receiving, they need to become a bit more thick-skinned and realize that simfile opinions from most people are on a subjective level -- my mantra for simfiling is this: as a simfiler, your job is to please at least one person with your hard work and concepts, since simfiling is arguably artistic due to discrepancies in charting styles. If you're able to please a single person, you've done your job -- that person is includes yourself as well. If you can please yourself, you've done well. If you please others, it's just an added bonus and a testament to what a good job you truly have done.

[xNiX]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Files shouldn't be removed from game unless there is an absolute necessity for the files to be removed -- extenuating circumstances like permission issues from the song artists, or technical errors with the simfile itself are issues that could be considered (for example, I wouldn't be against removing TGWP v2 due to lack of playability). Removing a file based off of negative commentary received or because of personal dislike is absolutely asinine and should not be considered.

Considering that there are non-distribution rules in place to prevent official FFR files from being replicated/spread after release, it could easily be said that you lose the rights to that particular simfile. There are many applicable examples of when this happens, like creating content for a company -- when you create artwork/designs for a company under a NDA, that work becomes the work of the company you worked for. Regardless of what your overall opinion is, if you dislike what you created and the company likes it, you can't rescind your content and ask for your money back. FFR submissions have the exact same contingencies -- you can create the content under the impression to be used for the game, but there is nothing saying that it will or won't be in game. Once it is in game, you are credited appropriately, but the file belongs to and is associated with FFR.

If a simfile artist has an issue with the negative reception that they are receiving, they need to become a bit more thick-skinned and realize that simfile opinions from most people are on a subjective level -- my mantra for simfiling is this: as a simfiler, your job is to please at least one person with your hard work and concepts, since simfiling is arguably artistic due to discrepancies in charting styles. If you're able to please a single person, you've done your job -- that person is includes yourself as well. If you can please yourself, you've done well. If you please others, it's just an added bonus and a testament to what a good job you truly have done.

Good points. And I honestly do not really have anything to say with that.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Considering that there are non-distribution rules in place to prevent official FFR files from being replicated/spread after release, it could easily be said that you lose the rights to that particular simfile.

Yes there are indeed rules against the distribution of FFR files as well as the FFR offline engine(s) at this point I believe. Although these rules are most likely in place because it is distributing FFR itself (as well as the property of musicians who gave consent for their music to be used on FFR without fear of distribution or other things like profit gain from the company).

For some reason I think people feel that music creators have virtually full rights to do anything at any time in regards to permissions, whereas stepfile authors have nearly no rights at all copyright wise. I'm not sure why this is the case (perhaps due to how things were explained and handled in the past regarding simfile authors) but until something is written up that states otherwise, they have just as much ownership of their materials as any musician does. It may have existed in the past, but with no current proof of the existence of rules that all stepartists relinquish their rights to FFR as soon as they submit a file, it essentially never really did. Sure, FFR can probably get away with it because I doubt a stepartist will file a lawsuit like a major record company might, but just because we can doesn't mean we should. If something is written up and appended to the submission rules quickly, we can hopefully put this problem behind us in the future.

[anubis2003]

I would imagine that stepfiles, like music, would be considered creative works, and thus copyright laws would apply to them. I am not a lawyer, and I think it would take a lawyer to truly answer the questions in this thread in a way that would hold up in court, but this basically comes down to whether submission of the simfile through the given process acts as a valid Copyright transfer agreement or not. If you want a definitive answer to that, I'd suggest getting in touch with a lawyer. Otherwise, just try to lay out the boundaries clearly as to what you expect to be allowed and what isn't allowed to keep this from happening in the future.

[Nullifidian]

Originally Posted by xNiX

Lets say if a simfile author wanted his file removed from the game. This particular file just so happens to be a legacy file and this particular file is also not heavily liked among the community. Based of these facts, the file would be removed in this scenario.

That's not a matter in legality, like foxfire already said. I'm just going to append to his post, that if someone has the right from a legal standpoint, he or she is able to act upon that despite of popular opinion of anyone else.


@ AJ, there's rules about distribution, but that doesn't necessarily mean they include rules about rights of simfiles. Unless it's specifically stated, the simfile author has the rights. Assumptions are not made when it comes down to legality. I remember reading rules regarding the rights of simfiles though, but I can't be 100% sure of it myself.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by _.Spitfire._

@ AJ, there's rules about distribution, but that doesn't necessarily mean they include rules about rights of simfiles. Unless it's specifically stated, the simfile author has the rights. Assumptions are not made when it comes down to legality. I remember reading rules regarding the rights of files though, but I can't be 100% sure of it myself.

Oh I completely understand the rules of distribution, which is why I provided a comparable/specific example of a NDA. Obviously there are other rules of distribution, though.

There wasn't a direct rule about file submissions, but I am 100% certain about there being a thread (used to be a sticky?) involving why in-game content couldn't be distributed. I'll see if I can find it.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by _.Spitfire._

Assumptions are not made when it comes down to legality. I remember reading rules regarding the rights of files though, but I can't be 100% sure of it myself.

Pretty much this. Without definitive proof that there is no doubt a rule exists, in place that everyone can easily see, that submitting a file to FFR means the rights of the step artist are transferred to the site, they own the content. This of course, is under the assumption that merely having a rule posted they must adhere to before submitting, is all that is necessary legally to hold a case against someone. We should ensure this is all that is necessary legally if we wish to transfer their rights to FFR for complete and permanent permission to use the content.

I can understand the NDA AJ, but since both musicians and stepartists are giving permission to use their content completely voluntarily without any sort of rights transfer in place, they still have full control over their property. If they turn around and decide they no longer wish to give FFR permission, FFR must comply unless we can show a transfer of rights has occurred and they cannot demand for their content to be removed.

[TC_Halogen]

In the instance of FFR though, I do feel like stepartists have leverage over in-game content because they are the ones that dictate whether or not a file gets into FFR. Musicians can give permission, but stepartists don't necessarily have to step a song when permission is obtained -- that process is voluntary. However, if a musician does give permission and a chart does enter the game, chart removal being alright seems hypocritical with your example, because the musician hasn't granted explicit permission to have it removed (and if they did, it falls under the previously mentioned extenuating circumstances).

EDIT: applicable scenario: an up-and-coming band grants permission to one of their songs, it gets released and causes slight jump in exposure of their home page due to FFR song list crediting, but then gets removed a week later due to the stepartist feeling like the chart is "inadequate". The musician in this case gets shafted.

EDIT #2: more personal scenario: AlexDest charted my breakcore track Cutthroat, and I'm really happy to see that it will be in game soon -- say that he were to want the file removed from FFR for whatever reason... I would be somewhat upset because I was excited to see it in game, and it would have been removed likely without me having a say as to why.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Musicians can give permission, but stepartists don't necessarily have to step a song when permission is obtained -- that process is voluntary. However, if a musician does give permission and a chart does enter the game, chart removal being alright seems hypocritical with your example, because the musician hasn't granted explicit permission to have it removed (and if they did, it falls under the previously mentioned extenuating circumstances).

Stepartists make charts just as voluntarily as musicians give permission for their music to be in game. The resulting product is an FFR file which only is able to exist with the explicit permission given from both the step author, and the musician. If either of the two parties wish to revoke their permissions, unless a rights transfer occurred, the FFR file must be removed in terms of legality.

As for your first example, as much as that sucks for the band, that is how it must be handled. Since FFR currently has no clear rule that states stepauthor rights are transferred to FFR upon submission, problems like this very well could arise.

As for your second example, your emotions have no effect on legality. I'm sure you are happy to see more of your music in game, but if he wishes to revoke his file from the game, at this point legally he has the full right.

Emotional repercussions have no effect on legality, and do not change that stepauthors currently have just as much right to remove any and all of their steps as musicians do their music. I'm not trying to say I agree with this action, or that I support it by any means, I'm just saying that is what is legally allowed. FFR has the ability to change this with the adaptation of rules that would strip stepauthors of some rights upon submission, but at the moment this isn't the case. This is why I keep saying this, so we don't have to worry about stepauthor rights in the future, and can keep charts regardless of the change in mind of the steppers.

[blindreper1179]

Let 'em be a bitch and remove them, and make a rule where the steps are ffr's after in game. I'm sure someone can make better steps anyways.

[alloyus]

I like Nixon's files don't do that

[icontrolyourworld]

instead of wanting your bad files removed, make a piss load of great ones and put them in to balance out the bad ones. that'll show them who's boss.

[trumaestro]

I'm agreeing with foxfire here. If a music artist rescinds his permission and wants his songs removed, that is done, end of story. Currently, a step artist gives implicit permission to use his work simply by submitting. Why then should we treat step artists any different from music artists?

Until it's officially said otherwise, we should agree to remove files upon either the song or step artist's request.

[Bobby Jeffrey Hill]

seriously this is a bigger blow to your reputation than having shit charts.. what the hell are you doing >.>

[ELRayford]

The simple solution would be to ban then delete the account. Problem solved.

[d4u7211]

Hey look
Legacy files are still in the game. Granted, even though no one has really explicitly asked for their legacy file to be removed, we haven't removed them because they're "bad." some people think that adds to the nostalgia/history/challenge. It shows a really well rounded player.

A file you create for FFR batches aren't "donations" to the site. Sure, you do the work, but the admins, judges, etc. Download the file, test the file, judge the file, convert the file, test the file more, frame fix the file, sync the file, add the file to the actual game, wait for vet feedback, change difficulties.

All of these things are the process for your file getting approved. You submit files to the game so that it can be a part of the site. Again, it isn't some donation or a service the stepper provides and they can just take out. The site does just as much work, maybe even more, than the stepper, to make the file worthwhile in the game. The stepper strives for that - the site doesn't "run" off the "donations," so to speak. (sure, it helps, and the system is great because of the diversity and the challenge of getting the files in, etc, but when you put it in this serious of a context this is what it boils down to. )

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by foxfire667

Stepartists make charts just as voluntarily as musicians give permission for their music to be in game. The resulting product is an FFR file which only is able to exist with the explicit permission given from both the step author, and the musician. If either of the two parties wish to revoke their permissions, unless a rights transfer occurred, the FFR file must be removed in terms of legality.

It can only exist if the permission is given from both parties, but again - will not exist unless the stepartist takes the initiative. If the song in question doesn't have respective permissions, then the simfile artist cannot step that file for FFR under any circumstances -- there is no choice in the matter. The other situation is not the complete inverse -- if the song does have the respective permission, the stepartist has the opportunity to do it, but is by no means required. You're looking at the difference between no option, and the potential of an option (as opposed to no option, and a guarantee).

I also have a differing opinion on another point -- whether or not it's correct thinking, I'm not sure.

This "rights transfer" that you mention is applied to both the musician and stepartist when a file is sent in for review/inclusion for the game. The stepartist has the right to their simfile as is (.sm/.dwi), and the musician has the right to their audio files (.mp3/.ogg), and anyone who doesn't agree with that is obviously very dense. That's not where the problem of simfile removal comes into play. Vote4Nixon has rights to his respective simfiles, and the artists have preemptively granted permission for these tracks to be used into the game. Let me go on a quick tangent here:

FFR is a website that is owned by a single person, and everything on it is implicitly owned by this same person -- this person technically has access to any and all assets contained within the site and reserves the right to modify or remove any particular content (responsibly: WHEN NECESSARY); this is pretty much inclusive to anything on the site (forums, forum accounts, chats, profiles, any other miscellaneous services, the game, etc). So yes -- V4N might have the rights to that content, but he loses those rights the moment that the file is converted and hits the game because it does not and will not match the previous content. Assuming that a person sends in a high quality audio file and a SM file presumably created in an editor intended for making StepMania files, that file will be modified considerably when it hits the game, as the audio will more than likely be 160 Kbps (or lower, thanks to Flash limitation) and playable under a frame-timing system at only 30 FPS (an engine limitation). It just goes back to saying that they are voluntarily allowing their content that is normally playable on one game to be ported to another, as FFR does not have its own proprietary content editor/creator.

Originally Posted by foxfire667

As for your first example, as much as that sucks for the band, that is how it must be handled. Since FFR currently has no clear rule that states stepauthor rights are transferred to FFR upon submission, problems like this very well could arise.

As for your second example, your emotions have no effect on legality. I'm sure you are happy to see more of your music in game, but if he wishes to revoke his file from the game, at this point legally he has the full right.

My counter-example above appropriately responds to this particular thing, but I would like to add that because there is no system for handling this particular thing, neither party has a right to modify/change things that happens. FFR removing the content affects the musician, and leaving it in game affects the simfile artist's desired results -- it doesn't work out. There's no clear rule that states stepauthor rights, but there also is no clear rule that states musician rights in this particular scenario as well, so nothing -has- to be done, as the situation is currently fine the way it is.

[stargroup100]

if a chart author wants something removed just because he wants it so then no

if he has good reason (like I did) then yeah why not

[Mollocephalus]

If it's synthlight we are talking about, yes remove all his files right away thanks