Need some opinions

[psychoangel691]

I actually think this is a really good argument and that people have a lot of good points on both ends. Really no reason to kill it off while this is actually still getting good contribution.

[Zageron]

Legacy files are staying. Let's stop about them now.

In fact, the files are staying regardless. I already spoke about this with a number of staff members, and we all agree that they files will NOT be removed on the whim of the creator.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by Zageron

You know that by submitting a file to FFR you 'technically' give up the right to distribute that file anywhere else? That's how the rule has always been. Simfile artists have no right to have their files taken off FFR.

If this is the case, it must be placed somewhere for everyone to plainly see. They still technically are the right holders of their step file unless you forewarn them that submitting to FFR means otherwise.

I am not exactly a frequent FFR submitter or a stepfile artist by any means, but I could not find this rule in the Queue / Batch discussion thread, which seems to lay down all the current rules for FFR submissions and judging. If there is another thread I missed where this rule of relinquishing rights is visible to users, could you please link it to me? If no link exists, the rule might as well not exist copyright wise, because the users had no way of researching it before hand. Please post this rule somewhere for all users to see so this sort of thing can never need to be debated about again.

[Zageron]

As long as I can remember, that has been the rule.

[psychoangel691]

There's actually a lot of grey areas with the simfile submissions I think that we need to clear up. Like at one point it was stated that things previously released could not be submitted for FFR such as the files that were on DF or that are in SM, but they've been getting accepted in the batch anyway. I think that we should put in something clear about the removal of files only being reserved to like song author and idk extreme circumstances I guess like if it converts completely wrong or somehow gets altered from how it was intended.

[Zageron]

And, we're back.

Behave.

[trumaestro]

Originally Posted by Zageron

As long as I can remember, that has been the rule.

This is a poor excuse. There hasn't to my knowledge been any rule about it, and there isn't officially one now.

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

That's what makes it a grey area and definitely needs to be clearly stated now.

That's another problem. The files were released before any notice of this was put up. Would we have the right to apply a rule like that retroactively?

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by trumaestro

This is a poor excuse. There hasn't to my knowledge been any rule about it.



That's another problem. The files were released before any notice of this was put up. Would we have the right to apply a rule like that retroactively?

I don't know what was in the rules previously before things were revamped. For all I know it could have been a rule in previous years that got overlooked when the site returned. At one point FFR was a business, but I wasn't staff nor did I step prior to the return so I'm not sure where that stands.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by Zageron

As long as I can remember, that has been the rule.

In terms of legality, that honestly isn't enough. I think that the staff should flesh out a set of terms that all users agree to upon submission of a file. Once this is all set, you could post it in a thread where submission rules are available for all users to see (like in the thread I linked earlier), and then you will never have to worry about this sort of thing anymore.

It's once thing to have a rule that everyone knows about and can see, but from what I can tell the rule isn't available for users to find on a whim when submitting a file. When I submitted my one crappy file, I had absolutely no idea that this rule was in place, and I read up everything I could word from word before I sent in my step. I'm not trying to start anything here, I just want to know that in the event someone wants to remove their files and FFR says no, that FFR will be in the legally right to do so.

[Nullifidian]

I remember reading rules like "no redistributing of files" and that it's property of FFR, but I could be mistaken. If no such policy actually exists on the agreement, FFR has no legal standpoint to deny a stepartist's wishes because then it's the artist's right. They would have to adjust the agreement to clearly state that but until then, artists have free reign.

edit: foxfire, it was (and probably still is) readable for everyone. I'm not sure if it was deleted in the process of getting the site back up or if it's still there, but there was definitely a policy about it. If it's still there and the submitter hasn't read those rules, it's kind of like the small lines in a contract people overlook. They're still part of the agreement.

[One Winged Angel]

Originally Posted by _.Spitfire._

I don't agree with removing the files. Once submitted and released, they're part of FFR's property and it's at FFR's discretion what to do with the files (unless there's legal obligations that say otherwise). Simfile artists sign their right on the file off to FFR once they submit it and the file is released, much like how a musician signs of rights to their music to a label, or an artist signs of rights to their pieces to a publisher. It's part of the agreement you accept before you send something in. An agreement is like a contract, you can't simply do what you want after you agreed to it.

(that is, if FFR has such an agreement, because otherwise FFR has no legal standpoint)

This is really the only way to handle this issue. If this was an implicit agreement yet wasn't explicitly stated somewhere, the simfiler maintains ownership and has the right to remove his files. And if that's the case, this needs to be addressed sometime very soon in order to prevent other simfilers from potentially following suit. Like Hakulyte said, this may need to just be a one-time thing because it's currently a grey area.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by _.Spitfire._

I remember reading rules like "no redistributing of files" and that it's property of FFR, but I could be mistaken. If no such policy actually exists on the agreement, FFR has no legal standpoint to deny a stepartist's wishes because then it's the artist's right. They would have to adjust the agreement to clearly state that but until then, artists have free reign.

There probably was something like this in the past that wasn't re-written into the thread when they redid it in '11. Which is something that we need to find out because a lot of these files are like '07 and '08 so they may very well be under that if it were there before.

Edit: Found the '07 thread but it was updated in '11. I didn't see anything earlier than that. Hey weren't early simfile authors paid? Again I wasn't really involved in these aspects back then but I thought I heard something about that.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

There probably was something like this in the past that wasn't re-written into the thread when they redid it in '11. Which is something that we need to find out because a lot of these files are like '07 and '08 so they may very well be under that if it were there before.

That could be a possibility, but there still needs to be clear proof that this rule existed for everyone to see at the time. Sure you can say it existed, but it doesn't mean anything legally if the actual rule cannot be dug up anywhere unfortunately. Perhaps logs of previous edits are kept in the site somewhere that an admin can look at?

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by foxfire667

That could be a possibility, but there still needs to be clear proof that this rule existed for everyone to see at the time. Sure you can say it existed, but it doesn't mean anything legally if the actual rule cannot be dug up anywhere unfortunately. Perhaps logs of previous edits are kept in the site somewhere that an admin can look at?

I honestly don't even know what would be where. At one point simfilers were considered staff and were in the staff forum and such. Someone that was around back then would have to shed some light I think.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

I honestly don't even know what would be where. At one point simfilers were considered staff and were in the staff forum and such. Someone that was around back then would have to shed some light I think.

Yeah that would be a good idea. If someone from the time is still around, they could most certainly give us a good explanation of how things were handled.

I think at this point though the most important thing to be done is to append these terms to the FFR submission rules as soon as possible (maybe you can even get a pass on retro-activity for previous stepfiles that were released without knowledge of this rule existing, give time for an appeal for files to be put under the rule or something). That way this gray area will no longer be an issue in future situations, and FFR will have full and permanent permission to use the files.

If the staff doesn't feel like it at the moment, I'll write something like this and you all can look at it and see if it fits what you are looking for. I'm in the mood to write something for some reason.

[Crazyjayde]

Well, anyway. I'll just add in what I was trying to say mid-lock. If we ever have to remove said files, we could always replace the steps with fresher ones or even make it a stepfile contest in the community like we had earlier this year. Even then, Vote4Nixon has asked for his files to not be credited to him anymore, if this is the sole issue, a name change would be the best scenario for everyone (like Zag' proposed earlier). But anyway, we'll need to know what were the ownership terms at the time before proceeding further into the case.

[xNiX]

I'm going to give it one last final try, because I think a lot of people are misinterpreting what I'm trying to say.

Originally Posted by xNiX

No need to be all grumpy mam.

I'm not trying to incline we should remove all legacy files. If a simauthor wanted their song to be removed (and it just so happened to be a legacy file on FFR), I don't see the big deal anyway. It's not like a majority of the players on FFR like playing them in the first place. That was my point.

If a file is going to be removed, I think it also has to be taken in consideration how much it is favored by the community, and how often it is played. I brought up the whole "FFR has over 1.2k files" because it's not like it's the end of the world if we lose some files.

Like Haku said, there should be precautions so this privilege isn't abused.

Here is my original post. I really am not saying all legacy files should be removed. I used them as a mere example.
Lets say if a simfile author wanted his file removed from the game. This particular file just so happens to be a legacy file and this particular file is also not heavily liked among the community. Based of these facts, the file would be removed in this scenario. See what I did there? That is all I was trying to say. Nothing saying, "Get rid of all legacy files" If you took this the wrong way, I'm sorry. I should have elaborated.

I tried to involve the community on a decision of a file being removed and not just solely on the simauthor. My bad if I used a poor example for this discussion.

(rain)

Now back to this question again...

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

Do you think that a simfile author should be able to have their files removed from the game once they're in? Especially if they've been in for years?

Yes, and this all sort of leans back onto what Maggie said. If a artist put up some art on a website, sometimes it is allowed to be taken down at the artist's discretion. For example, if I were to create a piece of work voluntarily without being paid at all, I would still feel like I have ownership of the art even if it is being displayed on someone else's website for public viewing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of FFR's simfiles were voluntarily made by people so other people can enjoy their files. Am I right? Isn't that why people put files into the game in the first place? Not to increase player A's stats, but so they can be recognized for the hard work that they put into their art. It may be kind of selfish when I say this, but I still feel like the simauthor has some sort of ownership of the file still even if it is in FFR's database.

(doh)

In my honest opinion, if a file were to be removed from this game, there would have to be a damn good reason why it is being removed.
Some examples:

• The file is not enjoyed by most of the people in the community.
• The file has issues with some of the engines. (You can't play all the files in the game using R^2 and that's the only engine I can even use right now)

(Yes Velo, I understand R^2 is also not your best and favorite line of coding you made for FFR.)

Like Haku said earlier...

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

It should be done right now in time, but you should eventually come up with guidelines on the submission thread to explain what's an acceptable reason to remove a file etc. to avoid abuse.

If this were to happen, there would be definitely need to be some sort of guideline so this privilege would not be abused at all. I do realize I'm one person, but I do feel like the community should be involved if a file were to be removed from the game. After all, this game is played by people who have a love/hate relationship going on with it.



Realistically though, FFR is a website that owns a song once it is released to them. There is really isn't much I can do or say to change the mind of how Synlight wants things done on his website. Just like how people will never be able to change their names, nor delete their account on FFR. Why? Because I don't own this website. (obviously I know this)

That is all I was trying to say.

[Crazyjayde]

Originally Posted by mrpopadopalis

If a music artist comes in and requests that their works get removed from the game then (I presume) that the corresponding files would be, irrespective of the stepartist's opinion. It's the same deal here.

I don't like being a turn off, but it's hardly the same. The original musical content is owned by the producer/label only, and thus, the permission agreement signed with FFR concerns only the integration of the song to the game, but does not concern who handles the file. At this point, the simfile created by the stepartist holds little to no ownership over the content of the song.

Basically what I'm trying to say, is that artist ownership > stepfile ownership.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by xNiX

Yes, and this all sort of leans back onto what Maggie said. If a artist put up some art on a website, sometimes it is allowed to be taken down at the artist's discretion. For example, if I were to create a piece of work voluntarily without being paid at all, I would still feel like I have ownership of the art even if it is being displayed on someone else's website for public viewing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of FFR's simfiles were voluntarily made by people so other people can enjoy their files. Am I right? Isn't that why people put files into the game in the first place? Not to increase a player A's stats, but so they can be recognized for the hard work that they put into their art. It may be kind of selfish when I say this, but I still feel like the simauthor has some sort of ownership of the file still even if it is in FFR's database.

(doh)

In my honest opinion, if a file were to be removed from this game, there would have to be a damn good reason why it is being removed.
Some examples:

• The file is not enjoyed by most of the people in the community.
• The file has issues with some of the engines. (You can't play all the files in the game using R^2 and that's the only engine I can even use right now)

(Yes Velo, I understand R^2 is also not your best and favorite line of coding you made for FFR.)

You're kinda contradicting yourself though and that's what I was trying to get across when I said something about what if it were your 5 favorite files. Because at first you state that they should have the right to remove their content but then say that it should be conditional such as not being enjoyed by the community.

[foxfire667]

The problem with that xNix is it doesn't really matter whether people like it or if the file has been around for a while. This all boils down to legality, and as it is now there seems to be no visible rule in place that specifically states rights to remove a file are taken away from the step artist when they submit. They are just as much copyright holders of a stepfile as any musician is to their music, and if you don't have them relinquish their rights before hand, refusing to remove a file could come with legal consequences.

This is why we really need to set up how we are going to handle this type of situation, and ensure that everyone has easy access to this information when they decide to submit a file.