TWG CLIX: Form your special exclusive groups now! - Game Thread

[AragakiAyase]

_Zenith_ has replaced R.E. Arxyi.

[_Zenith_]

Will actually read and participate in the morning probably.

Otherwise hello.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

Will actually read and participate in the morning probably.

Otherwise hello.

hoiii

[Gradiant]

Super stressful shift and I'm exhausted. To be completely honest, don't give a shit about twg right now, I'll talk tomorrow.

[Precarious]

Got home a little while ago. I'll reread from this afternoon until now, and point out anything worthwhile. Then I'll do a full roster run before I go to bed (although that's probably a couple hours off still).

[Precarious]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

I made this read list with the goal of investigating players further and hopefully get better content/support for making clear decisions. That Null "wolf-lean" is just hinting that I agree with DaBackPack about thinking that Precarious haven't made enough human-looking posts and is possibly yet again hiding behind "raw commentary". I'm not saying "omg we should lynch him", I'm just hinting that if he keeps following that pattern, he's unlikely to make me town-read him. Precarious if you read this, it's very simple, you can keep doing theory posts, but you should also explain "YOUR" stance, not every possible stances.

Here's an example:



Your stance here is: "I disagree strongly". Good! Why?


Yes, yes that makes sense, but what do "YOU" think?

Yes, yes that makes sense, but what do "YOU" think?

Yes, yes that makes sense, but what do "YOU" think?

You're pretty bad at reading comprehension. The things you bolded are what I think. The stuff you ignored is the supporting argument--you know the thing I want so see from people.

I think unsupported gut reads are largely useless to other players. That's what I think.

I think posting "X is town, Y is a wolf" with no explanation creates the illusion of contribution and activity, but does nothing to promote actual discussion on the alignment of X or Y, nor does it promote an actual game conversation in thread. That's a bad thing. That's what I think.

I think saying "so and so has content" because they posted "X is town" without saying "X feels similar to game A, where they were town, and are being unusually aggressive, when as wolf they've historically lurked" gives wolves a method to hide in plain sight. That's also a bad thing. That's what I think.

I think disparaging game mechanics discussion has a chilling effect on actually thinking about the game. Theorycraft has a purpose, because if you can contextualize the game, you can begin to figure out why X said what he said, and why Y responded in kind. It has a purpose because if you're not paying attention to game elements, you might miss a hint that suggests a wolf or serial killer or confirmed town, or might create a scenario where town can lose more readily. That's what I think.

I think that complaining about my posts not being human enough is an easy way to create the impression of activity, without actually putting real thought and effort into it. That may just be due to laziness, or it may be due to wolfiness. This is how I post. I'll post this way as town. I'll post this way as wolf. Maybe playing with you guys will gradually change up my style, but I've been playing this way for years. It's not going to change overnight. That's what I think.

***

But you know what? All of the above is the kind of hyper-rational, slightly distanced stuff that you don't like anyway. Because I'm speaking about ideas, not people. So here's what I think about people. You, for example. I think the only reason you bothered to make the post I quoted is because you were challenged by Xel about it, and in order to not look weak (refer to the post you quoted), you made a shitty argument with logical gaps in it to support your past read, and maybe get Xel off your back. And that is the exact type of defensiveness I referred to earlier in the game about you. I'm not sure that you're a wolf, but you're playing differently than town you. That's what I think.

[Precarious]

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie

Care to point out one person who can consistently read wolves based on observational and mechanical evidence on D0?

Are you seriously arguing that people shouldn't use evidence/cases to support their votes? I honestly can't believe that anyone is saying this. I'd vote you, but this isn't a scumtell, it's just unbelievably, stupendously wrong.

[Precarious]

Let me clarify, in case you haven't bothered to read my longer posts on this. Your gut feelings are themselves a kind of evidence, but you need to explain why. If you can't enumerate why someone strikes you as town or wolf, then it's worthless as an actual scumhunting tool, because no one else will be able to give it credence. And while evidence-based voting isn't going to be perfect on D0 (I guess you guys call D1 D0, which is kind of strange to me, but whatever), it's more likely to result in a wolf lynch than "hey, X is a wolf!" because a supported vote might at least encourage other people to think "hey, maybe there's something up with X."

If you have the ball on your own 20 with 5 seconds left, a Hail Mary isn't very likely to work. It's still a way better choice than having your fullback run up the middle.

[Precarious]

Originally Posted by juckter1

Heh, it was Shado who was talking about Charu being a slip, but his logic can apply to this post too. Why am I in your thoughts dear?

Because your post was objectively wrong. You claimed that DBP had way more content than he actually had. See #430.

[Precarious]

Originally Posted by inDheart

first days are tough because they start from zero, but i disagree with you saying gut reads are not a useful tool

This all started with my argument with DBP. I think we can agree on that? Here was DBP's town read post, from way back.

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

Freezinice and Haku are probably never on the same team here

and honestly I have freezin and gradiant both as town rn

This is, as far as I know, DBP's gut read (at the time, for all I know it's changed) on Freezin and Gradiant. At the time, they were in the midst of their big fight.

DBP has them as both town. There is no explanation as to why. This is not particularly useful to our overall conversation. It does not tell me why DBP reads them as both town. Moreover, two early unsupported town reads is such a minor (and, if desired, easily reversible) position that it does nothing to advance the conversation. I asked DBP, several times, for reads. I never got them.

There's nothing wrong with gut reads as a personal tool. Intuition and logic are both fine as starting points, since you have to start somewhere, and no one really knows what the fuck is happening on D0 anyway. But the difference between a pure gut read and a "logical" post is that the logical post requires logic--there has to be an A leads to B. This lets other people inside your mind. It allows them to examine your argument for or against someone, and also allows them to examine you. A purely intuitive gut read needs clarification on what/why that intuition leads you in that direction. Otherwise, it has no value to the greater conversation, and no persuasive value unless other people happen to have the same gut feeling. And given that everything is somewhat unreliable on D0, mass agreement is unlikely unless something unusual happens.

If you make a gut read, you should try to support it and explain what leads to that gut feeling. That explanation is evidence. Whether it's good evidence or not is for the player base to decide.

[Precarious]

And since no one is here (or at least replying to all this), I'm just going to say it's getting late, I'll finish the roster run tomorrow. Night guys.

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by Precarious

You're pretty bad at reading comprehension.

Yes. That's why I'm going to need your help here and it's also why I separated your post in multiple quotes.

Originally Posted by Precarious

The things you bolded are what I think. The stuff you ignored is the supporting argument--you know the thing I want so see from people.

No. It's only what you think about concepts.

Originally Posted by Precarious

I think unsupported gut reads are largely useless to other players. That's what I think.

I certainly agree with that as it is exactly the point of why I posted.

Originally Posted by Precarious

I think posting "X is town, Y is a wolf" with no explanation creates the illusion of contribution and activity, but does nothing to promote actual discussion on the alignment of X or Y, nor does it promote an actual game conversation in thread. That's a bad thing. That's what I think.

Are you against generating interaction between players or what?
How do you tackle a situation without making players communicate with each others?
I certainly don't understand. Is there a more optimal way to play this game that no one told me about?

Originally Posted by Precarious

I think saying "so and so has content" because they posted "X is town" without saying "X feels similar to game A, where they were town, and are being unusually aggressive, when as wolf they've historically lurked" gives wolves a method to hide in plain sight. That's also a bad thing. That's what I think.

That would be a brief description of "meta"?

Originally Posted by Precarious

I think disparaging game mechanics discussion has a chilling effect on actually thinking about the game.

Theory without practice doesn't mean much. That doesn't mean that theory is not important, that means that there's two important elements and you want them together.

Originally Posted by Precarious

Theorycraft has a purpose, because if you can contextualize the game, you can begin to figure out why X said what he said, and why Y responded in kind. It has a purpose because if you're not paying attention to game elements, you might miss a hint that suggests a wolf or serial killer or confirmed town, or might create a scenario where town can lose more readily. That's what I think.

Once again, I agree, that "Theorycraft has a purpose", but it's not supposed to be the only factor.

Originally Posted by Precarious

I think that complaining about my posts not being human enough is an easy way to create the impression of activity, without actually putting real thought and effort into it. That may just be due to laziness, or it may be due to wolfiness.

We're doing this because while you have great critical abilities to theorycraft, there's a missing important element which is what you "feel" about the situation. Once you put what you feel with what you think together, I think everyone will be relatively happy with your posts in general.

Originally Posted by Precarious

That may just be due to laziness, or it may be due to wolfiness.

You should mention it. That's called a motive. You can go and be like "I think X player is being lazy because he/she is not trying to put any effort into explaining why they think that way. You can do that, in fact you should do that. The other player is going to have to clarify their intentions and the game will progress.

Originally Posted by Precarious

This is how I post. I'll post this way as town. I'll post this way as wolf. Maybe playing with you guys will gradually change up my style, but I've been playing this way for years. It's not going to change overnight. That's what I think.

How you're posting is fine, I'm trying to make you add the little part of content that makes this game move in one direction or another.

Originally Posted by Precarious

But you know what? All of the above is the kind of hyper-rational, slightly distanced stuff that you don't like anyway. Because I'm speaking about ideas, not people.

Am I supposed to conclude that you're trolling me?

Originally Posted by Precarious

So here's what I think about people. You, for example. I think the only reason you bothered to make the post I quoted is because you were challenged by Xel about it, and in order to not look weak (refer to the post you quoted), you made a shitty argument with logical gaps in it to support your past read, and maybe get Xel off your back.

Holy shit, you said what you thought! You should have said that sooner. That's only partially true tho. Yes, I got challenged by Xel to care about you and it's a fantastic thing. That's like my first real interaction with you in the entire game and I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread love new content. At same time, you're my only "Null wolf-lean", I think it's fair to assume that I would address you sooner or later. Is that particularly important? Well, yes and no, there was already multiple interactions going on and I was just going along with the flow of thread @ who is currently online/viewing the thread etc. We're lucky this phase is like 76 hours long. We have time.

Originally Posted by Precarious

And that is the exact type of defensiveness I referred to earlier in the game about you. I'm not sure that you're a wolf, but you're playing differently than town you. That's what I think.

Good. I disagree, but I'm still happy you took a stance. You proved me that you are capable to write a post that contains what you really think.

As for how I play, I'm a reactive player. I gut read people, I think about why the situation is happening, but unfortunately I'm lacking in the thinking department. I'm working on that, but that's my problem. You just need to look at how I play and make your own conclusions.

btw, I'm really happy that you proved me you can say what you think. It's like we player rock paper scissor and you told me you always pick rock and then went for scissor when I went for paper.

:/

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by Precarious

DBP has them as both town. There is no explanation as to why.

Spoiler Alert: Make him explain why.

[mellonxcollie]

Originally Posted by Precarious

Are you seriously arguing that people shouldn't use evidence/cases to support their votes?

Am I? You tell me. Quote where I said anything like that

I've reiterated multiple times now that mechanics and logical thinking are important parts of playing a successful game. Here is me reiterating it yet again for you.

Gut instincts are also an important part of the game because *often times they are literally all we have*. because this is a game that depends on the players having a lack of information, otherwise there would be no game. So an information-based approach to the game is not going to work unless you have that info some how.....

Anyways I also am tired so I will post more tomorrow

[Hakulyte]

hi Mellonxcollie, I don't think we interacted much this game. I'm not very familiar with you as a player and I'm wondering if you have any questions for me.

If you don't, I guess I could try to iso your posts and say what I think in general of you so far.

Is that ok with you?

[Hakulyte]

rip interactions.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

hi Mellonxcollie, I don't think we interacted much this game. I'm not very familiar with you as a player and I'm wondering if you have any questions for me.

If you don't, I guess I could try to iso your posts and say what I think in general of you so far.

Is that ok with you?

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Hakulyte]

tbh, most of the iso is white noise and I was mostly curious about why she didn't like my play in one of her few posts.

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie

Anyways I also am tired so I will post more tomorrow

I also completely missed this ironically even if that was in my face since like 20 min.

[ShadoWolfe]

Lol Haku why're you asking if it's okay with mellon? Just ISO and hunt, no point in asking.

Also, goddamn it Haku, I've never seen you take that tone before (as in your response to Precarious). That response was actually kind of impressive tbh... but was it townie?

Only time will tell.

HEE Hee hee