TWG CIV: Postgame

[yo man im awesome]

trying to make sure I be a more prolific poster now. As seen by this game, I would argue I gave more input than I have in most games. While it may not have been entirely truthful it was input nonetheless. UTR is easier and all, but slightly less appealing. Sorry I couldn't stay longer wolves, was luck of the draw for them

[Brilliant Dynamite Neon]

Originally Posted by pntballa18

I completely lost interest just before thanksgiving. I think part of the reason was the IP sharer plan. Yeah, it was a good plan, and it would be [/was] stupid of us to not follow it, but it made the game seem so procedural. Yeah, we could've stuck with the plan and attempted to have everyone log on and vote themselves or whatever on day 4, but it wasn't really a fun plan. Mind you, I didn't make a conscious decision to stop playing, but when I realized that was pretty much where the game was going, I just wasn't really all that interested anymore.

Originally Posted by FoJaR

i mean think of it this way, humans had an alliance of 1/3 of the players FROM THE START

that's not only a huge voting block, it's a group that theoretically should NEVER shrink in size.

if you get a green seer result, you tell the new member that the mouthpiece is the seer, if you get a red result you have the mouthpiece come out in thread. newest member is always the new mouthpiece.

use the vigi power immediately, because it steals a night from the wolves (and you guys did this with great success)

wolves pretty much have to take out the mouthpiece, just because a potshot at someone else has the potential of shrinking your suspect pool even more.

under this scenario, the only way wolves win is a long con masterwolf not taking the bait.

or i guess dysfunction and inactivity

Seriously, humans, you guys fucking had it in the bag. It was your game to win or lose barring the Master Wolf (who wouldn't have lasted long in this particular instance, because, yeah) and you basically chose to lose the game. I think, though, that having such a sure strategy took the fun, and thus the motivation to participate out of the game (humans because they felt their input had no weight, wolves because it robbed them of control over their own destinies to a large degree), which combined with Thanksgiving eventually led the wolves to win. This game illustrates that it is ESSENTIAL for setups to be reviewed thoroughly in search of game-breaking strategies, which usually means it has to be looked at by more than one person (sorry @Fiction, but you are not the end-all be-all of game balancing, and I very much doubt this turned out to be the "perfect game" you envisioned.)

Furthermore, saying "OOT games are not proper games" is like saying California Rolls are not real sushi. It's simply another style of gameplay...in fact, it was the main style of gameplay here, that has been played since the beginning of TWG here, and has been the substrate of some amazing games. It's a completely different dynamic from traditional Mafia, and I think it gives FFR TWG it's own identity, and I'd be sad to see it go completely. However, it's important to know that turning the OOT switch on is not balanced by simply turning some other switches off. Balancing a game for Outside Communication requires critical thinking about how roles function in this environment, something that was obviously missing from the development of this setup, @YoshL. I appreciate your efforts, and I know what you were going for. I would definitely vote for and play a revised version of this setup if it came up in the future. But in it's current state it is broken. Right away, I would get rid of the Masons and turn Instalynch off.

Some other points of balance to note.
• A Seer in OOT games is basically a variant of the Masonizer; greens can't be confirmed with an MW, but he can recruit blues with 100% certainty if he can read them, and can find reds without dying. In balancing OOT games, this should always be taken into account.
• Humans getting wolf "package deals" of any kind are a BIG no-no, unless wolves are VERY powerful. Even so, it should never take any balance-important power away from the wolves in the process.
• Always treat Masons as if they are verifiable, even if they theoretically aren't.

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by Brilliant Dynamite Neon

This game illustrates that it is ESSENTIAL for setups to be reviewed thoroughly in search of game-breaking strategies

this. so much this. and I wouldn't even say this game or last game pushed anything over the edge. it's just a routinely noticeable thing.

I don't understand why we're all so antsy to jump into a game right after host signups or player signups end. can't we all simmer down for a sec? especially considering we've seen activity taper off near the ends of our games. in addition to providing extra time for hammering out any and all balance issues, maybe a slower start to each game would encourage a more consistent pace.

[Svaz]

I'm really embarrassed that the one vote I was all in upon was not only an easy in for wolves, but on a blue. I quit TWG forever, I am so embarrassed. I'm sorry.

;_;

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Charu

What, I should be punished for fake claiming as a seer?

Duh.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?...ynch_All_Liars

[Charu]

But I wasn't lying, I really was the seer! Honest, the end game display is faked!

[YoshL]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Duh.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?...ynch_All_Liars

what the afrobean

[Brilliant Dynamite Neon]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Duh.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?...ynch_All_Liars

Context, old grasshopper. Sure, it was a potential misstep to put such full trust in a Green seering, but that potential wasn't realized as Charu was a VH. And then they DID eventually happen upon the masons, who served as additional mouthpieces to protect the Seer.

As I have stated above, masons should always be treated as verifiable even if there is no way in game mechanics to verify them, since any counterclaiming gambits the wolves have to eliminate them always approach a 1:1 trade, which is always bad for wolves as the ideal K/D ratio is > 1:3. This isn't even considering that the game had cardflipping, which would make such a gambit toast after one lynch.

Also see FoJaR@12.

tl;dr You don't want to lynch the liars that are protecting town power roles. Unless you are a wolf.

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by dAnceguy117

@humanz: any busted fakeclaim should be punishable by death imo

to clarify: any busted fakeclaim. "busted" as in, publicly exposed as fake. Charu's would never be busted because the real seer would never want to counterclaim.

I'm a fan of Lynch All Liars personally, and I think it would be pretty effective when used by everyone... in thread-only games. OOT is a different animal in that regard, I think.



Afro are you gonna play with us?????? I want this

[j-rodd123]

well when you have someone fake claim seer at must lynch, that should set off some bells and flags......

[FoJaR]

yeah i did about a quintupletake when i saw that silvuh post

[Xiz]

Lmfao me too.

[Brilliant Dynamite Neon]

Whaaa? Silv fake-claimed Ban Hammer, not Seer, which stayed a quickwagon because the power was already exhausted and it was of lesser consequence. And then he apparently managed to convince Gradiant (the REAL Ban Hammer, mind you) that it was a gambit meant to possibly get Funnygurl to fake-claim as well, which worked because of their "shared" suspicion of Funnygurl.

Not exactly lynch-proof, but not suicide either. Probably would have been lynched anyway if people were active, but then trust in Funnygurl would have been at an all time high, which would prove disastrous next day.

l2read pl0x

EDIT: I just wanna add how amazing it is that one wasted Day screwed over the human team to such an extent, because it was the key thing that set up the wolf win. This is also the only game I've ever seen where lynching a wolf (namely one of the IP sharers) made the human team MORE likely to lose in any situation.

[Xiz]

Oh, I don't mind what he did to the hammer. I'm saying that coming out during that time was completely uncalled for and in my eyes unnecessary. There was already an alliance from day one and no pressure on Silvuh.

But, I have no proof of this since it's game over but oh well.

[dAnceguy117]

there wasn't much pressure on Silvuh, yea, but there was potential for pressure on fojar, which was like the only thing which could have possibly led to a potential wolf loss at that point. Silvuh making himself the most lynchable wolf and distancing himself from Funnygurl the entire game was pretty brilliant imo.

[Tps222]

It's finally over

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Brilliant Dynamite Neon

tl;dr You don't want to lynch the liars that are protecting town power roles. Unless you are a wolf.

This is wrong. If a liar is exposed, that liar needs to be lynched, regardless of the reason they give for lying. This is a metagame strategy to discourage bad playing overall.

And a human getting caught in a lie in a failed gambit is a textbook example of bad playing.

[thesunfan]

so when Charu lied saying he was the seer to out Danceguy while protectiong RP, the real seer, that was a bad play?

[Xiz]

I dunno, Charu pulled it off and fooled the Red's. It helped eliminate the possibility of a power role dying. If anything, I consider it a smart play.

[thesunfan]

that's the point, there are plenty of problems with a black-and-white strategy such as that. Yes, lynch all liars is a good strat, and one I support, but it shouldn't be your Bible. Silvuh should've been killed off last game if you follow that philosophy, and for multiple good reasons.