D7 Should be split into two different groups

[TC_Halogen]

The biggest counter argument I can see:

- lower/newer players get the shaft early

Resolution: with any NCAA-style bracket, D1 players would get some enjoyment with a triple-elimination structure tournament. D1 players likely would end up against D7 players in the top bracket. Upon losing, they would play against the loser of the adjacent D7 player, making it D1 vs. D1 player. This would occur for all situations where a D1 player might be against D7 and D2 might be against D6; etc. Eventually, you will have D1 players converging with upper divisions. Those same D1 players have the chance to yet again face D1 players in the lowest bracket upon another loss.

At the minimum, a player in this tournament structure would, assuming that there are three songs per given bracket match, play a minimum of 6 songs (best of 3 where the player gets two-and-out'd into lower brackets and elimination).

[TC_Halogen]

also

Originally Posted by SK8R43

Dont get why you are targeting me, i was simply stating that D7 doesnt need it anymore than any other division. They are in that division because they are all around very good at this game, someone could be in low D5 for just getting a few great scores where as high D5 could have ALOT more skill so all in all its going to happen in all divisions and imo i dont think changing one will do anything. Its not perfect and never will be. lol

what

how does that correlate to what you quoted me saying at all? I was saying that there's no necessity to have divisions and divisional skill isn't an appropriate reason compared to other games...

[SK8R43]

I dont know, just saw that you quoted me, guess i just got confused lol

[TC_Halogen]

It was just preemptive action; I've been accused of having certain competitive opinions in the past because I was a "high-tier" player, so I just put that front up immediately to prevent it from being used as a counteraction.

[choof]

i'm a low tier player (krazykitsune took my spot in d7) and i'm all for smashing keys

[leonid]

WSOP has no division either
Why not just have players compete against everyone else and give out prizes for the top 100 or so

[AndyTheAce]

Originally Posted by leonid

WSOP has no division either
Why not just have players compete against everyone else and give out prizes for the top 100 or so

If it's elimination then the less skilled players (and perhaps newer? I think there were some play requirements for the 9th so this probably isn't too much of an issue) get eliminated first. This is bad if people are only motivated to play FFR by being in the competition (I was motivated to play more in the 9th, and I skillboosted heaps during the month before I was eliminated). If it's not elimination, the less skilled players get hammered by the harder songs (or just don't even try them (same thing could happen for more skilled players and easier charts)) which are necessary to determine placings. Having a non-elimination tournament, which I suppose would have to be cumulative, brings in the issue of tournament length. A really long tournament would be cool but perhaps difficult to manage?

Fair enough argument about the prizes; it's nice to win something but it means more when you earn it. But it's nice to win something.

From my experience in the 9th, the structure used worked and encouraged me to improve. I didn't play as much after I got eliminated in round 5, though. But someone has to win and everyone else has to lose, no matter how many divisions you make. That D7 has such a large skill gap is unavoidable because there is no upper limit to skill. Making D8 doesn't solve the problem, it just reduces the number of people affected.

(Some of this might've already been said. I read the whole thing earlier but I can't be bothered to go over it again.)

[Guest15937]

Originally Posted by leonid

WSOP has no division either
Why not just have players compete against everyone else and give out prizes for the top 100 or so

Well the difference is, in WSOP amateurs and relatively inexperienced players can draw out against pros and win lucky hands, and thus advance farther on luck than they would have on skill. If a D1 (or even anyone D5 or lower) plays a D7 player in FFR they have literally ZERO chance of winning.

And because of this, I can't see an open tournament or event attracting anyone below D6, unless it was set up specifically to allow lower-tier players more opportunity to play their equals, rather than their overwhelming superiors (such as Halogen's idea of a triple-elim.)

I can only imagine what it would take to hold a triple-elim bracket with hundreds of participants though...

[RB_Spirit]

Idk man i'm a D7 drop out

[popsicle_3000]

hmm, would have thought it would have been a bit longer before the old 'lets split top division into two because hi/low Dmax has too high a gap"

...

yawn

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Guest15937

I can only imagine what it would take to hold a triple-elim bracket with hundreds of participants though...

It wouldn't be as bad as you think, especially with prepared tools for automatic seeding through spreadsheets. With a little bit of work, everything after the qualifiers can be entirely automated.

With a two-sheet workbook, we can set the qualifiers and place people based off of results while playing additional songs for ties in raw scores. After seeding is 100% complete, you use references from the first sheet and create a bracket on the second sheet. Borders are used for the overall design elements, and references to the other sheet are used for the data themselves.

As far as to the length of tournament: there's one thing that most people are forgetting -- a triple elimination might be long, but remember: the official tournament's opening period, placement, and actual play spans near two and a half months! With a bracket structure, sign-ups could be handled without placement, seeding could happen, and then rounds can be scheduled in blocks, with players being forced to play their matches within the specific time-frame of the round (again: MP would make this great if everyone were able to use it well). Using block scheduling for rounds (i.e. having everyone forced to play within the same (short) timeframe), you could likely conclude a tournament of the 9th official's size in probably around half the time.

[mr_candy]

Reading this, there are some great ideas here.

1 free for all 10 week long tournament . We all play the same songs, starting from difficulty 8 all the way to 98.

Non-elimination as to incite players to still try their hardest, to constantly improve and more importantly stay in the community.

Sure d1 player eventually playing a 98 could suck for them(and most of us) file but i cant imagine too many people saying this isn't fair considering you are technically playing the best players in the world lol

Have scoring go off your total raw score at the end so it'll still be accurate when dossar aaa's them all lol and us mortal folk will know amongst our friends and rivals where we stand in terms of skill

No sand bagging, no division misplacement.

It would just take some wizardry with distribution of the prizes

I really can't see any downsides to this, maybe i'm just too sold on the idea :S ohh and with the current tournamentstructure iirc i and many, many others don't need to really try in the first few rounds just get above the elimination line. I cant even remember the first few songs in last tournament but in this one you would want try your best on every single one just to get that last few higher placements

[Toxophilis]

except there would be misplacement because some people are better at certain files on higher difficulties than ones on lower difficulties; even the best players dont always play their best

[mr_candy]

but we have that problem anyway and it wouldn't affect the end result, seeing as harder songs have higher scores your end total would still outweigh the lower level discrepancies
So it's the same as the current structure, i suck at mid range songs for my skill range. So i have to try pretty damn hard to get above the elimination line where as others my skill range wouldn't, the opposite applies when we get hard songs. So i'll still finish a higher position than them with the current structure

[YoshL]

Originally Posted by mr_candy

but we have that problem anyway and it wouldn't affect the end result, seeing as harder songs have higher scores your end total would still outweigh the lower level discrepancies
So it's the same as the current structure, i suck at mid range songs for my skill range. So i have to try pretty damn hard to get above the elimination line where as others my skill range wouldn't, the opposite applies when we get hard songs. So i'll still finish a higher position than them with the current structure

unfortunately, longer songs with more notes have higher scores.

something like max forever would weigh much more than a harder song like lolo, or mutant corecore

anyways, a 1 division tournament isn't as appealing to everyone because there are people who want to feel like they have a chance.

it's like, ok, might as well just not enter because i'm not really getting anything out of it, and have no motivation to improve because the top of the skill ladder seems really far away. With multiple divisions, that top of the ladder gets floors intersperced between, so we have a ceiling to look at, and strive to surpass

that's how i like to think of it anyways

[mr_candy]

ahh right, but not impossible to circumvent though right? i mean there's only 10 songs needed and you can pick files from the batch that are increasingly higher notecount as difficulty rises?

Yeah, i get what you mean and in the perfect world that would be amazing but sadly as hard as you guys try, the placements are never perfect. From the go people already know who's winning their divisions and for a lot of people they know they don't stand a chance because they've been properly placed. The winners of divisions are usually people who just got outright lucky and got misplaced or people who've sand bagged.

A lot of people i met last tournament didn't give it 110% because they knew instantly the didn't have a chance, the people thought they could win it, did(or came second). Fair play a lot of them no lifed it too and gained crazy skill but there was more casual than hardcore players competing

[Dynam0]

d8 when

i want to win a tourney plz

[Deidara837]

Originally Posted by YoshL

unfortunately, longer songs with more notes have higher scores.

something like max forever would weigh much more than a harder song like lolo, or mutant corecore

We could take the score as the difference between AAA value and the submitted raw score, the lower overall scores representing doing better

Therefore 20g on Max Forever would have the same impact as 20g on Lolo etc

[One Winged Angel]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

d8 when

i want to win a tourney plz

every two tourneys there's another division

aka we're due

[SK8R43]

I think D6 should be split too, i mean come on. Theres people in there with 60+fgo aaas and people in there with 0-2... thats WAY more of a gap than D7 imo