Sad but true

[-Izzy-]

ITs because they are desperate for money.
And if god wants us all to be christian how come he just doesnt come down here and tell us he is real.
I would beleave him then. Is he to busy? doing what? he doesnt do any kind of seismic activity for the earth cause thats all been scienticly proven.

Until i see any evidence at all then just from the lack of evidence is enough to disprove god as a whole.

[cmb]

ITs because they are desperate for money.
And if god wants us all to be christian how come he just doesnt come down here and tell us he is real.
I would beleave him then. Is he to busy? doing what? he doesnt do any kind of seismic activity for the earth cause thats all been scienticly proven.

Until i see any evidence at all then just from the lack of evidence is enough to disprove god as a whole.

Haven't you ever heard of faith?

[YungYung]

Originally Posted by psychic25

Well, technically, from what I've learned, Christianity a religion that believes in the idea of missionaries and "spreading the word". At my church at least, we're supposed to go and "spread the word about God". Isn't this a sort of recruiting? And isn't it required (more or less) by the religion?

By spread the word they mean teach others about their religion, not FORCE THEM TO JOIN IT.

There is a difference between someone talking about the bible, and them expecting you to sleep with it under your pillow.

[YungYung]

Originally Posted by -Izzy-

ITs because they are desperate for money.
And if god wants us all to be christian how come he just doesnt come down here and tell us he is real.
I would beleave him then. Is he to busy? doing what? he doesnt do any kind of seismic activity for the earth cause thats all been scienticly proven.

Until i see any evidence at all then just from the lack of evidence is enough to disprove god as a whole.

Nobody is trying to fucking prove wether or not God truly does exist. You're arguing with yourself. We're trying to explain why is it that some chose to believe in it, REGARDLESS of the fact that there is no solid proof.

[chickendude]

if there was any proof that god existed.... he wouldn't be god

I'm not christian, so I don't exactly fit into this debate/argument/flame war perfectly

also, the thing you seem to be missing is that god (if existing) would not be like us in any way (extremely selfish etc.). He wouldn't say I WANT EVERYONE TO BE CHRISTIAN. He wouldn't try to control minds.

the more I think of it, I keep religion and any kind of evidence/science related stuff separated in my mind completely. Religion gives people hope, and that is the main thing that is still important.

In my opinion, all the other parts of religion are mostly junk. I think of religion as more of like a moral set of codes. It tells me what is right and what is wrong. (I'm not speaking about any religious text here.

Any hardcore religious people (IE my dad) would be pissed at me for being so far apart from religion, but its difficult to stay close while learning about science simultaneously. My dad still thinks that Darwin is a bunch of bullshit. I don't try to argue. He can believe what he wants. I don't tell him that he's wrong... because how can I know for sure? I don't see why you can't do that either Izzy.

I don't plan on trying to persuade you to change your beliefs. It's perfectly ok with me. I just don't like it when you try to force yours on everyone else (disrespectfully). I guess there's no moral for respect in atheism.

[Layla-Day]

Originally Posted by lord_carbo

Speaking of Christianity and homosexuality, where does the Bible say homosexuality is a sin? I still never learned the exact location in the Bible no matter how many times I ask =/ Do Christians even know their own damn Bible?

Lev. 18:22:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind, it is abomination

Bak to topic:

I really don't care whether someone is gay, even though i do have to say i can't stand those girly actiin males. They try to act more womanly, but fact is, I have never in my life seen a woman walk or speak like those some of them try to imitate, or whatever they call that.

EDIT: After reading the 8 pages I have a couple of things to say:

Izzy:I've seen you made quite a few unknowledgeable, naive, somewhat uneducated comments.

Its just such a shame to see people argue over worthless topics.
I am a Christian too, but this argument goes past religion n homosexuality to what yo think about God or the bible. truth is NO ONE GIVES A SHIT

You also try to implyto us that you are intelligent and well spoken, when I have seen 6 year olds make better arguments than you.

We all have different beliefs, and the world is always gonna be like that.

If you choose to go hide under a rock from religion then you do that, but just as we are forced to keep our religions to ourself we would think you would have the decency to do the same.

I'm sorry to rant, but i had to say something.

[Chromer]

Yung pretty much blew Izzy's spot up and Layla just reinforced it. What Izzy fails to realize is there has to be something after we die. Based on what Izzy is saying, after we die, nothing happens. There is no Heaven nor Hell. If that is true then what is left? Only darkness? You contradict yourself buddy. As with the Bible, I believe everything that happened in the Bible is true. Of course while you people say the Bible contradicts itself, I laugh. If you guys interpret the Bible, Jesus' death cancelled out all the old ways of thinking established in the Old Testament. However, there is one sin God can never forgive anyone for, and that's open blasphemy of his existance. God I hope you get your life together Izzy.

[chickendude]

Well, when you die
you're dead

its like a big long nap... forever
you don't exactly think... or see darkness or anything like that

its not contradictory there

also, I think that most religious texts are extremely muddled, contradictory, edited, and overall not accurate in any way. The more vague a religious text can be, the more plausible it becomes. I think that the bible is waay waaay waaaaaay too detailed of a text to possibly stand through time in that sense. It does have good morals and stuff like that though. But all that old stuff about edens and miracles, I don't buy it.

I should start a religion with an extremely vague text alluding to things without explaining them at all.
Who's with me?
chickendudeism

[xiron]

Chickendudeism fo' sho'.

Now for a post on topic.

I have a few homosexual and bi friends, and I don't hold it against them at all. I am also a Christian. I believe that even if homosexuality is a sin, it's no worse than any other sin. Hell, we are all sinners, so I don't see why we should judge other people because they sin when we're no better than them.

[YungYung]

Originally Posted by xiron

Chickendudeism fo' sho'.

Now for a post on topic.

I have a few homosexual and bi friends, and I don't hold it against them at all. I am also a Christian. I believe that even if homosexuality is a sin, it's no worse than any other sin. Hell, we are all sinners, so I don't see why we should judge other people because they sin when we're no better than them.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning what the church is teaching the Christians, but this is just one of those "I'm interested and would like to learn more" type of questions.

If God says that all sins are equal, does that mean that in his eyes, he judges one who has committed murder no differently than a boy who has told a lie to his mother? And if they both admit to their sins, they will be both forgiven and be treated as equals?

And if that were true, that would justify homosexuality in the eyes of God wouldn't it? Up to my knowledge, god forgives all those who sin as long as they believe in his existance, so what is up with the church saying that homosexuality is unforgiveable, and that all gays are going straight to hell? I mean, there are plenty of people in the world who are both christian and homosexual. Ever see the movie 'Saved!' ?

I just don't get it, or maybe there's something that I don't know. Would someone like to fill me in?

[chickendude]

What I really want to know is whether homosexuality is something developed in childhood, or whether its something born with.

I'm guessing its a combination, but its impossible to say for sure either way right now.

And how do we explain the increasing rate of it now? Are there more homosexual people in this era than in ones of the past? It sure seems like it. Or maybe there are just more coming out of the closet now because of increased acceptance.

And why are the rates so high? If one out of ten people have their hormones backwards... then humans would never have evolved.. If we go with darwin here, I don't think that homosexuality is a trait a person is born with, unless humans suddenly evolved recently to make this trait more common. I think its something imposed by society more. Now that it is becoming more and more acceptable, its also becoming more and more common. I think that these two things are related. I'm not saying its bad, I'm just pointing something out I'm thinking here.

[Laharl]

I don't believe all sins are equal. I don't recall any scripture stating that, either.

BUT

My religion believes all sins can be forgiven except murder. (Killing in defense or because you're in the military and have to are not murder.)

And depending on the Christian sect, God doesn't forgive simply for beliving in Him and His son. You have to repent, which in short means feeling true guilt for the sin as well as a dedication to never commit the act again. That's what it says IN THE BIBLE, but I kinda feel dumb for not having the scripture to reference. It is in there, though.

Anywho:

Izzy, why are you mad at me? I don't get it. I simply stated what I felt. It seems like people jump the anti-religion bandwagon all the time to me. It's like it's popular to diss people who prefer to believe in something rather than be a codgerly old miser all day long. That's the thing I don't get. It's like... to me, I see people bash religion all day long, then go home and are usually unhappy. I understand there are exceptions (something YOU don't seem to fathom with religious types, I might add), but for the most part, this is true.

Do people hate God because they are unhappy?

[chickendude]

I think Laharl has a point

This is a trend that seems to show for people who bash religion.
(not necesarily all atheists, but the ones who bash religious people aimlessly)

[cmb]

My religion believes all sins can be forgiven except murder. (Killing in defense or because you're in the military and have to are not murder.)

Well if that's true then Paul(author of romans,timothy, ETC)wasn't exepted into heaven because when he was Saul he killed many christians.

And depending on the Christian sect, God doesn't forgive simply for beliving in Him and His son. You have to repent, which in short means feeling true guilt for the sin as well as a dedication to never commit the act again. That's what it says IN THE BIBLE, but I kinda feel dumb for not having the scripture to reference. It is in there, though.

Now what you said there is absolutly correct,and I also feel kinda dumb not having scripture to reference right now .

[YungYung]

Originally Posted by Laharl

And depending on the Christian sect, God doesn't forgive simply for beliving in Him and His son. You have to repent, which in short means feeling true guilt for the sin as well as a dedication to never commit the act again. That's what it says IN THE BIBLE, but I kinda feel dumb for not having the scripture to reference. It is in there, though.

So, if we reuse the example I had in my previous post, the christian murderer and christian liar would both be forgiven in the eyes of God because they felt guilt for having comitted those acts. On the otherhand, the gay man would not be forgiven because despite the fact that they believe in the existance of the Lord, they continue to have relations with other men as if there was nothing wrong with it.

If that's what you meant, then I think I sort of get it, although I don't think that's completely ideal.

[Laharl]

Originally Posted by cmb

Well if that's true then Paul(author of romans,timothy, ETC)wasn't exepted into heaven because when he was Saul he killed many christians.

I should rephrase... Those who murder without knowledge of the evil they are doing can repent of their wrongways. Someone like, say, me, who knows it's wrong and wouldn't ever be doing it out of some sort of duty, would pretty much go straight to hell if I killed someone.

[jewpinthethird]

I am agnostic. I use to be one of those guys who absolutely hated religion (especially Christianity). I used to think all the world's problems were a result of religion. Saying "Christians are hypocrites and close minded!" Well, I was no better.

Who am I to judge people for their beliefs? If that's how they choose to live, then who am I to interfer. As long as it doesn't interfer with my life. Which is why I am not opposed to gay-rights.

[Reach]

Originally Posted by Chromer

Yung pretty much blew Izzy's spot up and Layla just reinforced it. What Izzy fails to realize is there has to be something after we die. Based on what Izzy is saying, after we die, nothing happens. There is no Heaven nor Hell. If that is true then what is left? Only darkness? You contradict yourself buddy. As with the Bible, I believe everything that happened in the Bible is true. Of course while you people say the Bible contradicts itself, I laugh. If you guys interpret the Bible, Jesus' death cancelled out all the old ways of thinking established in the Old Testament. However, there is one sin God can never forgive anyone for, and that's open blasphemy of his existance. God I hope you get your life together Izzy.

You would take the genesis seriously? It's a story. And knowing it is so simply strips the rest of it of any validity in my eyes. Sure, there are good morals and a lot of good things in the bible, but it's man's creation that bothers me. The earth isn't 6000-10000 years old according to creationism. The c decay theory is a fallacy. Noah's arc didn't happen. Ancient egyptians historical scrolls date back to before the flood, it didn't happen. It is a brilliant...and the most successful cultural creation of mankind.

And why would there have to be something after we die? That's fairly naive. Your brain cells die. You cease to function. You can no longer perceive reality, so no, there is no darkness. Believing otherwise relies on super natural powers, and the fact that we as beings are special. Assuming there is an intelligent god, I see no reason for it to be anything like us, or to assume we are special. It would have to be beyond our comprehension. That and the fact that it would be impossible for us to be alone in the universe doesn't make us all that special. I hope heaven is a pretty big place.

I have nothing against religion or people that are religious. It can be a good thing, but it wasn't my thing. I just don't like this mindless recruiting thing that is often going on. My brother and sister and being forced to go to church, and they dislike it and do not understand it. They don't understand the concept of god, they have other questions and things to discover in the world right now. I don't believe in forcing someone into an unquestionable religion. They ask how god came to be and they are told he just was, there is no explaination, they are just expected to hold 'faith' and go to church. This was more or less what happened to me, and I rebelled. I was a non believer for a very long time, but the cult like ways of some of these confession classes were ridiculous. I walked out, and never looked back. I no longer require religion, and don't believe in it, but I will not judge those who take it as an important part of their life.

The only thing I dislike are the mindlessly obsessed. Religion is about expanding yourself and bettering yourself as a person, NOT closing yourself off to the world. (and that is not directed at chromer or anyone specifically, I just see it a lot, and felt like replying to chromer's personal thoughts with some of my own.)

[banditcom]

Perfect post Andrew. Seriously. Exactly how I feel.

[Chromer]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=17090

Seeing how the people who actually went to the place are fairly intelligent men, I'd be hard pressed to see this as fallacy. I'm not a obsessive Christian like most of you are trying to categorize. So I beleive what happened in the Bible. So what? That's my belief and I'll be damned if anyone else tells me otherwise. That doesn't mean I'm going to try to convert people now. If you don't believe in God, more power to ya.