TWG 209: Jeff's Just Here to Party GAME THREAD

[SubaruPoptart]

Terraria was a success, gonna be going to bed.

Welcome back Lahke! I like your style of posting, what voice should I be reading it in? I feel you're theming your messages after somethin and I might be able to get behind em a lil better if I can step into your shoes narratively.

Cuz I'm reading the first part of #336 as sarcastic, but to give an answer anyway rhetoricity of the question be damned I considered TPS/Blind's thunderdome interesting because so much was strange about it that I wanted to untangle asap. Even after half a phase of parsin it out I'm still not certain I fully understand what's going on between them. Before you and Bone had come back there wasn't really much between you two I could gleam on my own, so I was focusing on the role drops. I had asked when the phase began if there were any role shenanigans that occurred, and that was very much a buncha role shenanigans so I was immediately intrigued.

That being said I do want to resolve the question marks on my reads, I'm curious where you generally stand on everyone else outside of TPS/Blind/Y'all two. I feel like I've got the VT core figured out but I am curious what you think in case you got other ideas.

[star-crossed]

Originally Posted by JinxGrace

If TPS was spying on Blind, blind’s target should be Roundbox if wolf?

Sorry TPS, just to make sure this is not lost in the shuffle - Jinx has pointed out that if Blind is a wolf, because Freezin is dead, you most likely should have seen him target Roundbox. Are you able to get clarification for uson how your role is supposed to work in the situation where a person takes two actions in the same night?

[blindreper1179]

Originally Posted by star-crossed

Sorry TPS, just to make sure this is not lost in the shuffle - Jinx has pointed out that if Blind is a wolf, because Freezin is dead, you most likely should have seen him target Roundbox. Are you able to get clarification for uson how your role is supposed to work in the situation where a person takes two actions in the same night?

I woke up thinking about this. If I was the solo wolf, with a power, I would of visited two people last night. Round and tps, but I only visited tps.

[Tps222]

I also wondered this but have no information about how the role works with regards to targets. Is wolfing someone considered a target, or is it just a non-wolfing red power target that gets reported?

If the host wants to comment on it publicly that's fine, but I'm not going to ask for that kind of info privately, it sways the game too much if it ends up being the latter.

[Tps222]

For what it's worth, my info has been consistent with how my role works and I claimed first in good faith.

Blind's info is:

1. a counter-claim that followed an d2-start immediate attack+ vote on me.

2. He uses inconsistent language in his claim with regards to what the role is named vs what it does. "just said he had a power or something". Is he a seer or a cop? If not a seer, why have a cop and a tracker?

3. His approach doesn't make sense because he said he thought there was only 1 town blue, so if he did see I had a power he should have immediately claimed and outed me as a wolf, there's nothing else I could possibly be in that scenario.

4. Blind voted star-crossed on D1 and left it there instead of switching to freezin as he hinted at. Freezin then tried to last-second pile on to Star-crossed. Sure, it could be coincidence, but there's a lot of bad circumstantial evidence here.


If we don't vote Blind out today, I think we should vote Jinx or Subaru. Subaru is who Freezin had initially voted before attempting to switch to Star, so that may have been an initial distancing attempt before time forced Freezin to switch.

Star is likely cleared from the D1 vote patterns, and Lakh seem to be leaning human to me based on their defense of Blind (I think a wolf would bandwagon on to a blue claim if they were the only one left). Bonehican actually seems genuine in their desire to self-lynch (even though I hate that approach, always consider yourself green and defend yourself publicly!)

If we go with Jinx/Subaru and we're wrong, I'm likely wolfed tonight and then you must decide between trusting Blind or voting out the remaining Jinx/Subaru player before we run down the clock. I'm trying to figure out the voting math if we go that way, but you would get a target report out of either me or blind should one of us not get lynched, just will be a decision on if you trust if (assuming it's not me providing the info).

[Tps222]

Updating my reads after reviewing the last few days of posts. Subaru should be a likely green read because they voted Freezn' out .

Jinx, I'm leaning green on now due to how often they publicly suspected Freez on day 1. This could be distancing, but seems unnecessarily direct at that point in time.

Originally Posted by JinxGrace

Alright. I played one game on MU with freeze and thought their/his playstyle was different here but you guys play with him a lot so I feel that you would have voted him earlier if you really thought he was wolf and not wait til dayend. So I don’t see how you can take credit when two people voted him and at least 3 others were susing them. Are you friends with him? Also are you friends with Star? My earlier post was wondering about your focus on Star and how that played out with how you entered the thread?

Originally Posted by JinxGrace

That actually sounds like a really cool mechanic. I was thinking survivalist like a role in the game. Mangahelpers is more mechanic + role heavy bases. We rarely have vanilla style. MU actually gave me the chance to play more vanilla style games as I learned things that I didn’t know about myself on my home site.

Forced to me is different because with mafia vs town. Not sure how to explain it but it’s more obvious after a game is over.

Haven’t caught up but a part of me is afraid I’m going to forget to vote. (Irl stuff) on lunch rn.

@Freeze you seem to be different then the fruit game, is there a reason?

Originally Posted by JinxGrace

FreezinIce -WR
star-crossed - TL (only paired with Blind?)
RB - TL
Tps222 - WR
SubaruPoptart - Null/ in the way could be really town or really fake, idk which
Lahkesis - Null
Bone and Blind are kind of interchangeable to me (Null in the way of can’t get a read)

So if I have Lahk/Bone/Jinx/Subaru/Star as town-leans, I feel pretty comfortable voting for Blind.

[blindreper1179]

Tps, I do not know the set up. We all have assumptions but we all know what happens when you assume. I didn't want to put myself out there without seeing what you posted. If I call you out immediately, we don't see what you had planned. Wolf or town. I was playing safe, I'm not outing myself just to get night killed.

Anyways, I can't remember who it was, but I like the plan that was laid out previously. Maybe that's a good road map?

[star-crossed]

Originally Posted by Tps222

For what it's worth, my info has been consistent with how my role works and I claimed first in good faith.

Blind's info is:

1. a counter-claim that followed an d2-start immediate attack+ vote on me.

2. He uses inconsistent language in his claim with regards to what the role is named vs what it does. "just said he had a power or something". Is he a seer or a cop? If not a seer, why have a cop and a tracker?

3. His approach doesn't make sense because he said he thought there was only 1 town blue, so if he did see I had a power he should have immediately claimed and outed me as a wolf, there's nothing else I could possibly be in that scenario.

4. Blind voted star-crossed on D1 and left it there instead of switching to freezin as he hinted at. Freezin then tried to last-second pile on to Star-crossed. Sure, it could be coincidence, but there's a lot of bad circumstantial evidence here.


If we don't vote Blind out today, I think we should vote Jinx or Subaru. Subaru is who Freezin had initially voted before attempting to switch to Star, so that may have been an initial distancing attempt before time forced Freezin to switch.

Star is likely cleared from the D1 vote patterns, and Lakh seem to be leaning human to me based on their defense of Blind (I think a wolf would bandwagon on to a blue claim if they were the only one left). Bonehican actually seems genuine in their desire to self-lynch (even though I hate that approach, always consider yourself green and defend yourself publicly!)

If we go with Jinx/Subaru and we're wrong, I'm likely wolfed tonight and then you must decide between trusting Blind or voting out the remaining Jinx/Subaru player before we run down the clock. I'm trying to figure out the voting math if we go that way, but you would get a target report out of either me or blind should one of us not get lynched, just will be a decision on if you trust if (assuming it's not me providing the info).

I think Bone is asking to be voted off is most likely a hail mary. If it works, then people let him live longer. If it does not, it puts a wolf team on the rocks out of their misery sooner. Win win.

I also do not think that that one action should probably make him more innocent than all of Jinx's interactions about Freezin on d0, although it is not out of the realm or possibility I have formed the wrong conclusion on those interactions. That is why I spent a lot of time displaying them clearly so people can take their own look.

I was hoping if Bone was town, he would maybe try to talk to Nakah about why Nakah is sus of him, or be more analytical on if there is any reason to doubt Jinx's interactions with Freezin, for example. Instead, he just kind of town read both of them with minimal thoughts. I do not know if he is afraid to make enemies or if he just does not know how to convincingly make an argument for either of them being sus.

Jinx's analysis of the claim situation was also more useful than Bone's. From my viewpoint, Bone is nitpicking whether Blind should have gotten colours as a result while Jinx actually noticed that yours is genuinely ambiguous.

Nakah in my mind seems to kind of just be doing his own thing. I do not understand a lot of it (such as why he is conspiracy theorising about the roundbox murder or why he is sus of Subaru). I think his demeanour is more convincing to me than Bone's right now though.

I have explained this before, but I will try once more with feeling. What Blind's role does is what I have linked twice from the Mafia universe and exactly matches the ability description he gave to begin with. Cop and Seer are basically interchangeable terms I think. So the role name is this game is Vanilla Seer, but it does the exact same thing that a Vanilla Cop does.

Yes I understand it was a bit confusing the way he spoke of it, but it makes more sense that he was just trying not to get mod killed. He has played enough TWG to know what a seer actually is and he is clearly less familiar with this vanilla finding role (because it is not as common.) Maybe he has never heard of it until he got the role. From my standpoint, that actually makes it more likely it is truthful.

I also understand that you feel there is an inconsistency with how he handled the information he reports to have gotten. I personally believe this apparent inconsistency is explained if he thought it was more likely that you were a wolf, but was not fully convinced, and thought it was safer to hint it and not come out with it in full.

And finally and most importantly,

Originally Posted by TWG Jeff Probst

Vote count:
star-crossed - 2 (blindreper, Freezin)
blindreper - 1 (star-crossed)
roundbox - 1 (TPS)
TPS - 1 (LastOfTheBonehicans)
Freezin - 1 (roundbox)
LastOfTheBonehicans - 1 (JinxGrace)
JinxGrace - 1 (Lahkesis)

Has not voted: Subaru

if anything is incorrect please let me know

Please stop posting right at 9:00CST, any posts/votes submitted on or after 9:00 will not count

Originally Posted by SubaruPoptart

freezin FUCK YOU PHONE

Did you miss the part that Subaru literally killed Freezin at the last minute? It would have looked weird for him to just sit there and let me get voted out when he said he was town reading me the most, but he had so many vote options.

Ummm... Sorry I now see that you posted more about Subaru and Jinx but I think I am just going to still post this in case it helps somebody.

[SubaruPoptart]

Originally Posted by Tps222

For what it's worth, my info has been consistent with how my role works and I claimed first in good faith.

Blind's info is:

1. a counter-claim that followed an d2-start immediate attack+ vote on me.

2. He uses inconsistent language in his claim with regards to what the role is named vs what it does. "just said he had a power or something". Is he a seer or a cop? If not a seer, why have a cop and a tracker?

3. His approach doesn't make sense because he said he thought there was only 1 town blue, so if he did see I had a power he should have immediately claimed and outed me as a wolf, there's nothing else I could possibly be in that scenario.

4. Blind voted star-crossed on D1 and left it there instead of switching to freezin as he hinted at. Freezin then tried to last-second pile on to Star-crossed. Sure, it could be coincidence, but there's a lot of bad circumstantial evidence here.


If we don't vote Blind out today, I think we should vote Jinx or Subaru. Subaru is who Freezin had initially voted before attempting to switch to Star, so that may have been an initial distancing attempt before time forced Freezin to switch.

Star is likely cleared from the D1 vote patterns, and Lakh seem to be leaning human to me based on their defense of Blind (I think a wolf would bandwagon on to a blue claim if they were the only one left). Bonehican actually seems genuine in their desire to self-lynch (even though I hate that approach, always consider yourself green and defend yourself publicly!)

If we go with Jinx/Subaru and we're wrong, I'm likely wolfed tonight and then you must decide between trusting Blind or voting out the remaining Jinx/Subaru player before we run down the clock. I'm trying to figure out the voting math if we go that way, but you would get a target report out of either me or blind should one of us not get lynched, just will be a decision on if you trust if (assuming it's not me providing the info).

I don't know how freezin voting me because I was trying and failing to vote them is distancing at this point, they seemed intent on keepin to the chaos of the kitb, voting star would've put both of em at 2 votes and it seemed more like self-pres than any sort of actual strategy. I had Star/Blind/Freezin in a trio and didn't really have any idea at the time that there'd be one between that particular trio.

4. Blind voted star-crossed on D1 and left it there instead of switching to freezin as he hinted at. Freezin then tried to last-second pile on to Star-crossed. Sure, it could be coincidence, but there's a lot of bad circumstantial evidence here.

I feel like this was addressed by him at some point for sure but I am also kinda curious the reasoning on that if I can't find it iso'ing what the deal was, aside from being absent for most of the phase. Blind staying on Star is strange for sure, didn't put much stock in it at the time. Like I said I think most of Freezin's vote action at the end of the phase there was out of self-pres than it was tryna frame anyone/anything or distance. It's circumstantial for sure, some of it still strange regardless but idk why this leads to immediately the vote bein between me and Jinx if it's not Blind.

I'm agreein with your analysis on Bone and Jinx, I was tunnelled on Jinx for a bit but am pretty confident they're chill now as well. I don't really like the self-sac angle from Bone, I'd prefer it to not happen like that but like I said my PoE leads to Lahke of everyone if not Bone.

Ideally I'd like to keep both PR roles alive, fmpov there's another chance to discern whether they're real that way. Now that you're both out and seemingly thunderdomin y'allselves you're kinda locked into "OK so what'd y'all see last night?" to me. You're both damned if you do damned if you don't. Like Bone said if the wolf kills the actual PR they're just throwing if it's between one of you. I'd prefer to solve between Lahke/Bone at this point.

[star-crossed]

I actually think Subaru should probably objectively be more town read than me, because I was very drunk at the end of day 0 and at least theoretically could have told Freezin it would be funnier to bus me.

Subaru literally put Freezin at the max amount of votes at the last minute when he really did not need to, while he was already well liked. It just puts them in such a risky position. His posting has also continued to seem extremely genuine. Like if somebody red checked Subaru, I would probably be arguing there is a werewolf framer or something.

[Tps222]

Originally Posted by star-crossed

I also understand that you feel there is an inconsistency with how he handled the information he reports to have gotten. I personally believe this apparent inconsistency is explained if he thought it was more likely that you were a wolf, but was not fully convinced, and thought it was safer to hint it and not come out with it in full.

He did NOT think this way and explicitly stated so in his counter-claim:

Originally Posted by blindreper1179

This is what I like to see!!!! Some of this is correct, except I'm not a wolf. I'm the towns Seer. I was suspicious of tps, so I did choose them. It came back "tps has a power" or something like that. I ALSO assumed 1 town power role. This puts us in a not so great predicament. Power roles are now on the chopping block, and by that I mean night kills. I don't believe tps is town because 2 power roles in a vanilla game with most likely 2 wolves, and they have no powers? Or did we both choose the wrong person? Idk.

LET THE GAME BEGIN!!!

Unless Blind comes out and says "yeah whoops my bad I misspoke" it doesn't add up.

[Tps222]

Originally Posted by SubaruPoptart

Ideally I'd like to keep both PR roles alive, fmpov there's another chance to discern whether they're real that way. Now that you're both out and seemingly thunderdomin y'allselves you're kinda locked into "OK so what'd y'all see last night?" to me. You're both damned if you do damned if you don't. Like Bone said if the wolf kills the actual PR they're just throwing if it's between one of you. I'd prefer to solve between Lahke/Bone at this point.

If we don't vote blind (and assuming we don't vote me), should we communally establish a seer/tracker target tonight for the non-wolfed remaining PR to reveal tomorrow in order to have more data to work from?

[star-crossed]

Originally Posted by Tps222

He did NOT think this way and explicitly stated so in his counter-claim:





Unless Blind comes out and says "yeah whoops my bad I misspoke" it doesn't add up.

I think when he says assumed, it is that he thought it was the most likely scenario. It is just not the only possibility he considered. He has said this a few times now I think. I believe you believe this but I believe the amount of time you were sitting on your information biases your viewpoint on it a bit.

Originally Posted by Tps222

If we don't vote blind (and assuming we don't vote me), should we communally establish a seer/tracker target tonight for the non-wolfed remaining PR to reveal tomorrow in order to have more data to work from?

Hm. The wolf team could have a blocking role, so it is theoretically possible you could both be left alive and only one of your abilities would work. You could make a public plan but it might influence who the blocking role targets. I think a lot of the other TWG vets are a bit more confident with this type of mechanics thinking than I am so I apologise if this is not the best advice.

[Tps222]

Yeah, if there is a blocking role it's possible the wolf kills Subaru instead as they are the most likely green role from a non-claim perspective, and allow Blind and I to continue to divide the discourse.

In that case, I would prefer for Blind and I to at least attempt to avoid targeting the same player. If he really is a vanilla seer, we should target some combo of Bone/Lahk with our powers tonight and report back. Results can't be trusted 100% but will at least avoid a completely non-productive night, I think?

[SubaruPoptart]

Originally Posted by star-crossed

Hm. The wolf team could have a blocking role, so it is theoretically possible you could both be left alive and only one of your abilities would work. You could make a public plan but it might influence who the blocking role targets. I think a lot of the other TWG vets are a bit more confident with this type of mechanics thinking than I am so I apologise if this is not the best advice.

That's the exact issue I have in this scenario cuz I totally would put a plan, but you never let your haters know your next move.

It's hard with a potential tracker/seer combo but how I was seeing it play out was you two just choose someone and report out; no co-ordination it just happens since we know y'all can. Has its own drawbacks that I'm not explicitly alluding to in fear of that same scenario playin out but hm.

Cuz the mere existence of a secret third blocker power last wolf, imo that inherently solves both of them immediately. There'd be 3 PRs kickin around, nobody else in this our current universe has attempted to say they also have a PR outside of Blind and TPS so running in that world would make this not an issue at all.

Beatin a dead horse, only way a 3rd blocker role is possible is if Bone/Lahke/Absolute Long Shot Jinx has kept it on the DL and is lettin the town PRs fight for themselves, once again like Bone outlined in their "If I were a wolf..." post.

[SubaruPoptart]

Was multiversing too hard, the blocker point is pertinent if it's between TPS/Blind so I am right back at square one 😭😭😭😭😭

[SubaruPoptart]

But wait fuck it we're triple posting, if the blocker's between those two and one blocks the other, we just kinda know it's one of them because the second person didn't report out rightttttttttttttt

Like anything they make up we can prolly pick apart at this point is my hope

[Tps222]

If I get blocked, I assume I just get no info/no comment on my target that night?

That would make things difficult, it opens a lot of reverse psychology options for the wolf. I'm going to stop short of walking through the logic because I see what Subaru is saying here.

[blindreper1179]

Originally Posted by Tps222

He did NOT think this way and explicitly stated so in his counter-claim:





Unless Blind comes out and says "yeah whoops my bad I misspoke" it doesn't add up.

I did no miss speaking. I said what I said. I honestly didn't know seer and vanilla seer was gonna be that different for a claim, that definitely is my bad.

Also, again, I did not counter claim, that would be me saying "NO I'M THE TRACKER, HE'S LYING!"
What made you pick me to look at?

Also, if we're saying what we're planning, if we hit the right person, we will see hesitance in them letting us check them. If we do, and neither of myself or tps is lynched, we both do that person. If not, we stick to two different people.

[Tps222]

Originally Posted by blindreper1179

I did no miss speaking. I said what I said. I honestly didn't know seer and vanilla seer was gonna be that different for a claim, that definitely is my bad.

I'm not caught up on the language, I'm caught up on your mindset. You specifically said you were the only town power role in your mind, so why didn't you claim once you got a hit on me as having targeted someone? What would the downside be there?

Originally Posted by blindreper1179

Also, again, I did not counter claim, that would be me saying "NO I'M THE TRACKER, HE'S LYING!"
What made you pick me to look at?

You're right here, my bad, it's not a counter-claim.

Originally Posted by blindreper1179

Also, if we're saying what we're planning, if we hit the right person, we will see hesitance in them letting us check them. If we do, and neither of myself or tps is lynched, we both do that person. If not, we stick to two different people.

I'm still trying to think this through, but I think there are situations where a wolf lets us both live and our reads are still contested.