TWG Turbo 37: Der Freischütz [GAME THREAD]

[Arapocalypse]

Originally Posted by leetic

Can you show me what towniness you see in sunfan? For me they're playing this game quite like inactive mafia would (mostly posting about how they're going to be inactive, giving up pushes whenever there's any pushback, etc.) I don't think I've seen them towntell once

I don't really feel like the towniness is that notable is the thing, which is why I didn't go into it much; light stuff like liking some of the way he seemed to find and defended Hate, also just light tone/vibes that are more difficult to quantify - none of it really make me feel like it could not be faked from a mafia perspective, is my issue, especially if Hate is mafia!!!

Essentially, you're very on point in that none of it really makes me think, oh hey this post/train of thought is really towny coming from sunfan!!! Just haven't gotten that click, sorry if you're town!!

Are you currently strongly mafia-reading sunfan, or have a lighter mafia read on him, or what?

[the sun fan]

Originally Posted by leetic

Are you actually gonna have a strong push or is this more pussyfooting?

I was trying to bait him to post one more time
Probably not pushing there but idk what I'm gonna do yet man

[Arapocalypse]

Originally Posted by leetic

But that's not very helpful is it? We can end up getting too the wrong conclusion by considering the wrong person. Nevertheless, it's getting a bit late in the phase for it to matter all that much

I mean like... if they are likely to die then yes, they would just claim then? I didn't really think that was worth mentioning, just felt like obvious PR things!!

[leetic]

Originally Posted by Arapocalypse

I don't really feel like the towniness is that notable is the thing, which is why I didn't go into it much; light stuff like liking some of the way he seemed to find and defended Hate, also just light tone/vibes that are more difficult to quantify - none of it really make me feel like it could not be faked from a mafia perspective, is my issue, especially if Hate is mafia!!!

Essentially, you're very on point in that none of it really makes me think, oh hey this post/train of thought is really towny coming from sunfan!!! Just haven't gotten that click, sorry if you're town!!

Are you currently strongly mafia-reading sunfan, or have a lighter mafia read on him, or what?

Probably not super strong in the grand scheme of things, but in the context of this game he's the least towny and fits in the most plausible wolf teams

[leetic]

Freikugel needs to shoot if we mislynch, even if a devil shot goes off it would be our only chance to win. If we lynch correctly I'll leave it up to them

[Hateandhatred]

I'm done eating and committed until EOD.

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

Keep in mind Halu would also do that kind of shit as town assuming he would think of it and that's actually what is happening

So I don't think I can follow a Haku vote if that's the only argument

Why in the holy mattress of fax would Haku do this as Town, when he knows there's a 1/3 chance that if he's killed due to PoE or whatever bullshit he has no control over, he might literally end the game for town? Think about it, we are 6 players left, if haku was vengeful spirit and was lynched, we are guaranteed to enter N1 2-2 and we lose the game instantly. There is not a single world I can imagine where he would do this. He would have been better off parking his vote on himself rather than stay as unvote. You know damn well he would have self voted if it came to it, it's haku. In fact, I'm surprised he wasn't already self-voting when talking about asking for sunfan to be unvoted, unless of course it was the holy wolf gambit

I also know this guy like he's my brother, or so I feel like. I would almost guarantee it.

Originally Posted by the sun fan

I'm a good boy, only thc and alcohol for me and maybe shrooms once and maybe coke once but that's it!!

dude shrooms I'm so fucking down dude we would have so much fun and we could add sanz

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

Thinking out loud

Ok here show me you're engaging the game in good faith and give me the two potential scum after Haku

Prove you ain't just trying to pick on the person who won't come call you out

I'll try to make a good reads list before 1 hour to EOD. I'm making one regardless, it might just not be overly deep or well written if I'm cutting it tight on time.

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

It's probably just OMGUS refusing to leave my body and soul but Hate sliding me the scum list because I don't "get" his tonfoil on Haku just makes me feel like he's planning to pair Haku and me off in a serious fashion the second i can no longer post

And I fucking hate it

Guys if his entire phase boils down to this one tinfoil and pushing the exact time that announced ahead of time they couldnt make EOD Imma be pretty vexed

I scumread you because I was frustrated with how differently we see this game, and I also genuinely felt like you weren't holding players to the same standards (I think sunfan also brought it up)

Originally Posted by Arapocalypse

See my most recent response to MixMasterLar: it it was not an overall readlist and was a "this is how towny/wolfy I think everyone's EoD was" list, essentially!!!

But the melon suspicion at the time was like... just felt like she had the least towny EoD in a somewhat disconnected manner overall; sorry, that's just how I felt at the time!!

Gotcha, that's fine, I'm just not sure why that's relevant or useful, if I interpret it like some postgame commentary on players regardless of actual alignment. But fair enough either way if you were just isolating Raeko, I don't think I share your view, but that checks out at least

Originally Posted by the sun fan

Your town read on leetic is far too strong, all other things equal

Well that's also why I'm scumreading MML (see above reply), I've been neutral to negative on leetic since the game started personally, but everyone disagrees with me, so w/e.

Originally Posted by Arapocalypse

Reread this a couple times and like... I'm still not really sure where you're coming from?

Regarding your Haku suspicion overall... on one hand, it's risky in the sense that multiple people have talked about hard towning them; the mafia agenda path for actually eliminating them here narrows drastically for you to suspect them, with that!!! However, it's also notable that Haku is not here to defend themselves, which does make them a bit of an easy push, regardless of whether you can get them killed here or not!!

I just like... am finding it difficult to believe that you're weighting Haku not voting here that heavily; it doesn't matter that my vote didn't have much weight, when we'd previously discussed the whole issues of leaving 2 votes on someone possibly losing us the entire game if they're the Freikugel!!!! Real talk, did you fully read that conversation that happened earlier today, between me/Haku/Leetic regarding Haku's vote? I understand it's possible that you could have skimmed it and missed the details; would ask you to go back and reread that if so please, as it is very important in understanding why they may not have voted there as town!!!!

Also I do realize in retrospect that I just shouldn't have voted at the time, since Haku hadn't voted yet, to give them the vote space; sorry about that Haku!!!!!

I am tinfoiling Haku hard because we've had a very close relationship for like a decade and a half and I know this is exactly how he would play this out in this position. Even people who aren't having daily interactions with him have played with him long enough to know he would be cooking this shit up in wolfchat nonchalantly while talking about the reality that he's not going to be around for half the phase and already benefits from an immense amount of town cred in order to lock the game to his benefit, assuming we don't nail the other wolf instead.

Originally Posted by Arapocalypse

The issue I have with this logic is that... both of the other people around at SoD (me/Leetic) expressed thoughts that we heavily townread Haku, and Haku hadn't been getting suspected at all - this sentence lives under the assumption that we would have tried to get Haku killed at all? Which like.. hypothetically if Haku is mafia, then they would be winning regardless of whether they voted here or not (as long as they don't vote their partner); them voting or not voting just is not significant at all, in that aspect!!!

The thing is that I'm not sure whether this is mafia!logic trying to eliminate town that can't defend themselves, or town!logic that just has a bit of a narrow view; currently leaning towards the former a bit though, because if Haku is town (and your logic does not dissuade me of that notion), then this is just straight up a very mafia-sided course of action to take!!

Again, what haku said is good, what haku did is bad. One of them is potentially all baloney, the other is tangible indisputable info. We know for a fact he parked himself on bugkid the entire phase and now isn't voting, regardless of how it was phrased, and he knew he wouldn't be around for EOD. We also know that he is keenly aware of the danger of not voting as HE BROUGHT IT UP HIMSELF! Even a stupid KITB setup could spell doom for town if he stayed unvoted, was lynched and was the vengeful spirit. None of those things are things he could defend himself on. I'm not accusing him of doing these things for bad reasons, I'm accusing him of doing these things at all based on the info we can actually track. I don't care if he was himself the gospel of truth, he could not defend that he stayed unvoted despite knowing the risk, and there's only one reason why he would do that. Unless he just misplayed extremely bad, but that's just unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Arapocalypse

Hateandhatred, here's a question for when you're around: let's say hypothetically Haku gets hypothermia and dies right now, flipping town!!! Who do you think is mafia in this situation?

Right now, thesunfan. I actually think part of him is trying to get sympathy from me right now and I think he's who makes the most sense since it means haku would have been solo wolfing for phase 1. I swear he told me FFR TWG wolfchat was off usually then brought up me potentially wolfchatting in the last 5 minutes before claiming (and to entertain the idea even a little, fuck off sunfan I would obviously know to claim vt as wolf, what is even the alternative), and I might be reading too much into it, but I think that question has slip potential in the first place.

But assuming Haku flipped town somehow... Probably still sunfan. My worldview of the game changes a lot (and I promise to further consider alternatives in a world where haku isn't straight up wolfing before EOD), it's just hard when y'all act like I'm crazy and predating on someone because they're not here when it's almost the equivalent to me of scumming a seer who got a red check on someone because the person can't defend themselves.

But yeah, sunfan, the last wolfchat question I thought was crap and that's why I fetched the rulechange I had to make in the previous TWG specifically because he told me that, though that's more a stretch.

Next is MML. Don't understand his skewed views, don't understand how he didn't want to vote off weiss/sunfan last round, but it's not so scummy than it is "I don't get it and I hate that".

Leetic I still think is very shallow and performative and treats the game more like a game manager than a player and he prolly takes the third spot.

Are you happy now?

Originally Posted by leetic

Everything

So are you going to address my wall post or not? I'm especially referring to the Haku thing.

[Arapocalypse]

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

Trying to get keys out of a car so already up later then I wanted, but I'm focusing on breaking into this fucker and then bed. I'm up at 5am tomorrow

I think I have to go Hate and here's why

-Stronger town reads elsewhere excluding SunFan (and would ideally wait til EOD to see if that was more viable but oops)

-Haku case feels really forced in places

-I fundamentalally disagree with a Haku wagon to the point I think it's harmful to towb

-this helps resolve previous CW and someone the night kills did shade

-.....man idk the whole push feels that bad. It really feels like scum knowing they have to make effort and picking some truly low hanging fruit no shut the fuck up inactives ain't low hanging fruit they are a fucking liability

And I hate voting here this early because I feel EOD will be telling for several players but I have to decide here and I mean fuck, apparently it's top tier sus not to vote so HnH it is

Yeah... no further notes on the case, summarizes it nicely; basically just where I'm at on Hate as well!!!!!

Haku not voting was fine per se, given there was plenty of time left in the day for stuff to happen!!! However, if both you/Haku are town then that means either you have to vote, or if not then it's very very beneficial for you to vote; either way, I figured you probably would ensure you voted before leaving regardless, given it's practically EoD now anyways!!

[Arapocalypse]

Originally Posted by leetic

Freikugel needs to shoot if we mislynch, even if a devil shot goes off it would be our only chance to win. If we lynch correctly I'll leave it up to them

Agreed on this, at least!!!

[Hateandhatred]

I swear to fuck y'all have to be trolling

[Hateandhatred]

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar

Trying to get keys out of a car so already up later then I wanted, but I'm focusing on breaking into this fucker and then bed. I'm up at 5am tomorrow

I think I have to go Hate and here's why

-Stronger town reads elsewhere excluding SunFan (and would ideally wait til EOD to see if that was more viable but oops)

-Haku case feels really forced in places

-I fundamentalally disagree with a Haku wagon to the point I think it's harmful to towb

-this helps resolve previous CW and someone the night kills did shade

-.....man idk the whole push feels that bad. It really feels like scum knowing they have to make effort and picking some truly low hanging fruit no shut the fuck up inactives ain't low hanging fruit they are a fucking liability

And I hate voting here this early because I feel EOD will be telling for several players but I have to decide here and I mean fuck, apparently it's top tier sus not to vote so HnH it is

yes, it's very top tier sus not to vote if you're town, because if somehow you died, you could kill us all!

did nobody understand why I voted weiss last phase?

[Hateandhatred]

like by voting me you're at least playing to your win con if you're town and trying to nail a wolf with the vengeful soul if it's you. Not guarantee that the vengeful hits a town!

[Hateandhatred]

Although in your case, MML, I legit don't know if you understand this aspect since you barely seemed to get it with weiss last round (since they weren't voting and that made them practically unlynchable for that very reason)

[leetic]

I'll thesunfan for now. As MML and Haku aren't going to return and thesunfan won't self-vote unless they want to throw, it's impossible for a wolf rush to insta with two on the wagon.

[leetic]

Originally Posted by Hateandhatred

I'm done eating and committed until EOD.



Why in the holy mattress of fax would Haku do this as Town, when he knows there's a 1/3 chance that if he's killed due to PoE or whatever bullshit he has no control over, he might literally end the game for town? Think about it, we are 6 players left, if haku was vengeful spirit and was lynched, we are guaranteed to enter N1 2-2 and we lose the game instantly. There is not a single world I can imagine where he would do this. He would have been better off parking his vote on himself rather than stay as unvote. You know damn well he would have self voted if it came to it, it's haku. In fact, I'm surprised he wasn't already self-voting when talking about asking for sunfan to be unvoted, unless of course it was the holy wolf gambit

I also know this guy like he's my brother, or so I feel like. I would almost guarantee it.



dude shrooms I'm so fucking down dude we would have so much fun and we could add sanz



I'll try to make a good reads list before 1 hour to EOD. I'm making one regardless, it might just not be overly deep or well written if I'm cutting it tight on time.



I scumread you because I was frustrated with how differently we see this game, and I also genuinely felt like you weren't holding players to the same standards (I think sunfan also brought it up)



Gotcha, that's fine, I'm just not sure why that's relevant or useful, if I interpret it like some postgame commentary on players regardless of actual alignment. But fair enough either way if you were just isolating Raeko, I don't think I share your view, but that checks out at least



Well that's also why I'm scumreading MML (see above reply), I've been neutral to negative on leetic since the game started personally, but everyone disagrees with me, so w/e.



I am tinfoiling Haku hard because we've had a very close relationship for like a decade and a half and I know this is exactly how he would play this out in this position. Even people who aren't having daily interactions with him have played with him long enough to know he would be cooking this shit up in wolfchat nonchalantly while talking about the reality that he's not going to be around for half the phase and already benefits from an immense amount of town cred in order to lock the game to his benefit, assuming we don't nail the other wolf instead.



Again, what haku said is good, what haku did is bad. One of them is potentially all baloney, the other is tangible indisputable info. We know for a fact he parked himself on bugkid the entire phase and now isn't voting, regardless of how it was phrased, and he knew he wouldn't be around for EOD. We also know that he is keenly aware of the danger of not voting as HE BROUGHT IT UP HIMSELF! Even a stupid KITB setup could spell doom for town if he stayed unvoted, was lynched and was the vengeful spirit. None of those things are things he could defend himself on. I'm not accusing him of doing these things for bad reasons, I'm accusing him of doing these things at all based on the info we can actually track. I don't care if he was himself the gospel of truth, he could not defend that he stayed unvoted despite knowing the risk, and there's only one reason why he would do that. Unless he just misplayed extremely bad, but that's just unbelievable.



Right now, thesunfan. I actually think part of him is trying to get sympathy from me right now and I think he's who makes the most sense since it means haku would have been solo wolfing for phase 1. I swear he told me FFR TWG wolfchat was off usually then brought up me potentially wolfchatting in the last 5 minutes before claiming (and to entertain the idea even a little, fuck off sunfan I would obviously know to claim vt as wolf, what is even the alternative), and I might be reading too much into it, but I think that question has slip potential in the first place.

But assuming Haku flipped town somehow... Probably still sunfan. My worldview of the game changes a lot (and I promise to further consider alternatives in a world where haku isn't straight up wolfing before EOD), it's just hard when y'all act like I'm crazy and predating on someone because they're not here when it's almost the equivalent to me of scumming a seer who got a red check on someone because the person can't defend themselves.

But yeah, sunfan, the last wolfchat question I thought was crap and that's why I fetched the rulechange I had to make in the previous TWG specifically because he told me that, though that's more a stretch.

Next is MML. Don't understand his skewed views, don't understand how he didn't want to vote off weiss/sunfan last round, but it's not so scummy than it is "I don't get it and I hate that".

Leetic I still think is very shallow and performative and treats the game more like a game manager than a player and he prolly takes the third spot.

Are you happy now?


So are you going to address my wall post or not? I'm especially referring to the Haku thing.

Do you have any townreads at all here? Seems like you're wolfreading two thirds the remaining players

[Hateandhatred]

aka I dunno if I would have scumread you for not voting the same way I do haku specifically because it's haku, regardless of any interaction haku has had other than voting and pointing out this very mechanic to everyone.

And if you're scumming over it y'all fucking suck because it's bullshit, it has obvious mechanical implication but y'all are rejecting all the evidence I brought up just because everyone is cool with haku and I'm an asshat because haku isn't there and it's automatically opportunistic

[Hateandhatred]

Originally Posted by leetic

Do you have any townreads at all here? Seems like you're wolfreading two thirds the remaining players

I'm cool with ara right now! I was rather indifferent to her, but she gives me the most "I'm trying to solve town". I'm sad that she doesn't seem to follow my logic either but at least I don't get the impression that there's any protection going on, we just don't see the game the same way.

[leetic]

Originally Posted by Hateandhatred

aka I dunno if I would have scumread you for not voting the same way I do haku specifically because it's haku, regardless of any interaction haku has had other than voting and pointing out this very mechanic to everyone.

And if you're scumming over it y'all fucking suck because it's bullshit, it has obvious mechanical implication but y'all are rejecting all the evidence I brought up just because everyone is cool with haku and I'm an asshat because haku isn't there and it's automatically opportunistic

A Haku lynch is not happening, the only person interested in pursuing it is you. You're gonna have to come up with another option

[Hateandhatred]

We've also never played together and I don't have the same preconceptions, expectations and experiences I have with sunfan and mml, so there's no red flags popping in that regard

[leetic]

Originally Posted by Hateandhatred

I'm cool with ara right now! I was rather indifferent to her, but she gives me the most "I'm trying to solve town". I'm sad that she doesn't seem to follow my logic either but at least I don't get the impression that there's any protection going on, we just don't see the game the same way.

So you only have one townread?

[Hateandhatred]

Originally Posted by leetic

A Haku lynch is not happening, the only person interested in pursuing it is you. You're gonna have to come up with another option

Yeah I figured. It's absolute horseshit though, if we lose the game and haku is wolf, I swear to god I will be very very spiteful.