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#61 |
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Rhythm game specialist.
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It also has something to do with people being closed-minded in general, as well...
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#62 |
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youtu.be/sM5hlrkaPSo
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 8,160
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#63 |
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YOOOOoooo
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,551
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Every game fills its own niche, stepmania for practicing since it runs the best and has the best options (judge, rates etc) most customizable, FFR when you actually want your scores to "matter" since it has the best leaderboards, and osu if you want to weeb out since every ranked map is anime Kappa
Its not like this is some melee vs brawl tier shit, all the vsrg are basically the same gameplay wise.. Last edited by Dinglesberry; 09-30-2016 at 05:27 PM.. |
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#64 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nima
Posts: 4,281
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So hold on someone stop me if I sound fucking crazy but here's what I think
- We don't need to give a shit about new player retention rates of our game This community is never going to outdo osu at convincing a bunch of 12 year olds that playing 3 star maps to anime ops all day is the singular focus of their lives. Sure stepmania has a lot of draw to new players it's just masked by the incredible barrier to entry the game currently possesses. I have frequently talked about the concept of specifically creating a pack that mimics ffr's 1-10 difficulty level designed to handhold new players through the introductory elements of the game and I've wanted to see this done for years now but while everyone agrees that it's a good idea nobody has once stepped up and said to me hey why don't we get rolling on this. And before you ask me why I don't just do it myself I want to be 100% honest about something. I really, really don't give a shit how large this community is. I'm going to keep playing until I don't think the game is fun anymore and then I'm going to go do something else. As much as there are people here who I like and respect and have forged friendships with, the nameless faceless concept of a massive community full of dawdling fawning preteens does not appeal to me. It seems from my perspective that very little gets done unless I do it myself (with respect to the 4k kb community) and I've honestly been doing a lot of that and the natural consequence of this is that I only end up doing what I want to see done, and an effective introductory experience to new players is just not a priority. It would be nice sure, but so would a lot of things in life. So let's talk about why we shouldn't give a shit about new player retention rates. - Stepmania is one of if not the most matured kb community in the world. This is inarguable at this point. We have a disturbingly long lineage of high quality playable (read: not stupid fuck promotional videos that exist to disguise the absence of playable) content. We have fostered the growth of dozens of the best kb charters in the world many of whom are still active and producing wonderful content to this very day. Despite constant declarations of death the charting community is as or more active than it was in 2007, and on top of this is exerting a large influence on the charting meta within communities such as osu. Charting aside the sm kb community also has the greatest wealth and concentration of player knowledge in existence. I'm talking about real knowledge, not the whole fucking "hahhaha osu makes u better at league of legends because both game involve using ur mouse!!!! hahahaha 430xxxsniperwindowwipersz" bullshit. I'm talking the kind of knowledge that is the result of more than a decade of players breaking down and analyzing the game and how it's played and putting it back together from the ground up. These are our advantages as a community, this is what we should embrace, and if we want the community to grow (and by we I mean you guys) you need to target the right demographic. And that demographic is the players in other games that have grown enough to realize that their respective communities just don't cut it outside of drawing players in. That's where stepmania excels, everywhere else we don't. We have the capacity to retain those players and once you get the ball rolling there they'll go back and tell their buddies "hey you know osu is actually kind of a total fucking dud in terms of literally everything outside weaboox factor I'm gonna go play stepmania you guys should too". Sadly the stepmania transitional experience here is also total dogshit. Sadly stepmania visibility is also pretty terrible, though admittedly not as bad as the transitional experience. People aren't going to realize how bad their game is unless they can see a better alternative and importantly that alternative is easily accessible. Stepmania also lacks a couple of key features that really add gravity to the draw. We're talking online rankings and leaderboards, a centralized nexus site where players can track their improvement over time and compete against other players. Centralized resources for newer players transitioning from other games to help get them started. Centralized resources on how to improve, discussions on different methods of approach to the game. Wow deja vu this is really starting to feel familiar, like I already tried doing this for everyone already. Anyway, for some people online play is a huge part of the draw. Smo isn't great but it's not bad and with a little work it could be much better. The reality here is this is the best shot stepmania has right now of expanding at any rate beyond what it is now (if it is indeed even expanding), if we can't do this. If we can't fucking convince the people just playing osumania 4k osumania 4k osumania 4k that they should be playing Stepmania instead, then we have no goddamn hope in the first place. |
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#65 |
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x'); DROP TABLE FFR;--
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,334
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Stupid idea incoming:
Just speaking for myself here, but I think it would be fun to experiment with having performance tied to something in some way other than mere self-improvement, and one obvious approach is to make Stepmania a sub-mechanic in some larger game. For example, an RPG where battling is done via DDR -- short little songs for enemies (which also allows for repetition / practice of simple step patterns) or for groups of enemies, longer songs for harder enemies, really long songs for bosses, harder bosses that start slamming you with modifiers, courses, etc. Or if you really want to get tricky, maybe in some cases you have to play Doubles, or 5-panel, or whatever. Sky's the limit. This sort of approach can also provide a clear path for newcomers while also incrementally building on their skill levels (you could also adjust the initial difficulty mode if you want to start on a more appropriate level, though). And since everyone would be starting this anew, it would help foster a community feel. Of course, developing something like this would probably be resource-intensive to do right, but it would be an interesting way to play the game if you've become bored with the usual "ehhh flip through song wheel, find something interesting, play it, and repeat these steps for 10+ years" mode of operation. I simply don't believe that relying on Stepmania alone is going to be enough if the plan is to someone expand the community... that's an exercise in futility, IMO. Last edited by Reincarnate; 09-30-2016 at 05:39 PM.. |
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#66 |
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Rhythm game specialist.
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don't think any of your points are crazy in the slightest - disagree with a few (perhaps because of misunderstandings); will respond after eating some pizza, etc.
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#67 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 32
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if SMO was improved a little bit, idk maybe update the interface and add new features (i'm no designer/programmer, i do some VBA/SQL and thats about it) it could be competitive to osumania 4k and start taking players over. one idea would be to write network code to connect single files or entire packs to SMO online with a "shop" interface so files can be downloaded right in the SMO client instead of externally (lol ripped from osu i think?). it'd just sap HTML from a specific page, grab .zip files from one URL (ie SMO's pack page) and compile it into a shop... not sure if this is possible. that way when packs come out (zips are added to the page) anyone in SMO could see that in the "shop."
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#68 | |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Mar 2016
Age: 29
Posts: 209
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Quote:
like playing an instrument, it's really up to the player to set their own goals and intentions. seems like most of us have our own ideas as to what the point of stepmania is as a whole, in terms of relating to a grander community i've kind of lost track of who wants what here i think i'm agreeing with some contributors to this conversation in that we're better off catering the small community as it is. but there are others here who want more universally friendly content for the game. subjectivemania 2016? |
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#69 | |
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YOOOOoooo
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,551
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too bad no one can make it, and whoever has the ability to actually make a game like this ends up creating l0lanotherpadgame http://store.steampowered.com/app/340960/ |
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#70 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Mar 2016
Age: 23
Posts: 132
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That game exists, and I think it just came outt: "The Metronomicon"
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Nothing's non-fat. That's why the world's going to explode one day. |
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#71 | |
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Rhythm game specialist.
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Quote:
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#72 | |
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x'); DROP TABLE FFR;--
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,334
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Quote:
I've been rattling this DDR + RPG idea around in my head for years, finally say it out loud, and I'm one day late? ![]() In all seriousness it's a lot different from what I had in mind, but still, looks interesting! Last edited by Reincarnate; 09-30-2016 at 05:58 PM.. |
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#73 | |
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Spun a twirly fruitcake,
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 28
Posts: 3,730
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gud thred
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Quote:
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#74 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Mar 2016
Age: 29
Posts: 209
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mina summed up my sentiment waaaay better than i did.
and like, yo, i do not want to play an rpg. there's a point to it all being the way it is. stepmania is, in my opinion, amazing in its simplicity. that's why simfiles and keyboard play have developed so much over the years. gimmicks won't make stepmania better edit: furthermore, it's not the community's fault that not many people took interest and stuck with it. it's that the vast majority of people just don't see the appeal in getting into the game - the people that do get into stepmania, though, get into it real heavy, and that level of play and commitment isn't worth sacrificing for lower standards or more gimmicks. so like, if the masses don't get it, fuck em :/ sorry if this all sounds pretentious love u guys Last edited by sunn0glasses; 09-30-2016 at 06:20 PM.. |
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#75 | |
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D7 Elite Keymasher
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Quote:
__________________
is expressing my inability to create a creative signature an act of creativity in and of itself? |
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#76 | |
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x'); DROP TABLE FFR;--
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,334
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If the goal is to focus on Stepmania alone, the most important piece IMO is to have a centralized online experience with multiplayer support, as well as a dedicated pathway for newcomers. Without those two things, I have no idea how you'd get anywhere doing anything else. There are way too many barriers to entry with steep learning curves otherwise. Last edited by Reincarnate; 09-30-2016 at 06:40 PM.. |
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#77 | ||||||||
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Rhythm game specialist.
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So let's address this point by point.
First off, I completely, vehemently disagree with your first point only based off of the way to preface your explanation for it: Quote:
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But let's not take the time to forget about all of the people who have come to produce the game content that everyone plays. There are is a LOT of playable content that has been spearheaded by individual community members that are supported by content creators everywhere to make them a success. If the main community contributors who know how to leverage the tools to create content would stop focusing on catering to the main community and work on bringing new things for the players who might be trying to get into the game, we could see an increase in player retention. This is something that matters to me personally. Quote:
I also feel like the red part that I've highlighted serves to target those who spend time incorporating elements from the other game to increase the attention that they get: being perfectly honest, but that's the kind of content that has the highest potential in netting players in - sure, it gives a perception of the game that's not quite the same as what you'd expect, but the game also comes with stock files that are much more normal and give players an idea of what the game is like. Conversely, if someone wants to find more content that is heavier in mods and visual effects, they can look around a bit and find them. Quote:
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![]() StepMania already has the capability of live tracking and online play; the people who are developing shit for the game could try to enhance the competitive element to be a bit better so that it's more appealing to watch. That's somewhat more for the niche crowd, but the appearance of competition at a high level might bring in players who are at the lower level that want to learn and get better (as addressed by sunn0glasses a few posts ago). Quote:
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#78 |
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Rhythm game specialist.
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additional post to tack to things: it's not like osu! and other games don't have a super high barrier of entry too. those games take time to learn and master much like any other mode. yet, players who are somewhat newer come in out of the fucking woodwork and start destroying the game - remember those 12 year olds you so callously attack? well one of them is #5 in the world in osu! standard, so... don't be so quick to dismiss -- age is only a number and some of the best players can come from a very young age.
EDIT: trying to find this video, but there's a -very- young PH player that i saw a video of doing Speed of Link [Extra] (don't think it was meatmap, could be wrong) that iirc, was only 11? again, age doesn't mean shit, so let's stop being condescending... Last edited by TC_Halogen; 09-30-2016 at 06:53 PM.. |
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#79 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nima
Posts: 4,281
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well obviously on the one hand not every 12 year old is a driveling sack of shit who only wants to play anime ops
but by the same token that i shouldn't apply that generalization to each one you can't really expect me to take one or two examples of not retarded 12 year olds and change my mind about them holistically on the subject of an introductory experience what i'm talking about is a pack that is packaged with the game itself ideally with free music or public domain music so there aren't any issues with distribution that is specifically crafted for a new player experience. That is with a custom difficulty scale that is implemented and a very specific curve of progression. It's not even necessary that new files have to be made for it, it can just be a compilation of pre-existing files from pre-existing packs that just get reorganized. This hasn't been done. Stepping stones is great if you know about it and know where to find it, the problem is if you're a beginner stepmania player you probably don't. That and the average file difficulty of the stepping stones series is significantly higher than what I'm thinking of. Either way you're right, nobody needs my permission to do this. Shit I would be happy if someone would do it on their own but you're also right, in that nobody is doing anything. Last edited by MinaciousGrace; 09-30-2016 at 07:41 PM.. |
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#80 | |
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Rhythm game specialist.
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Quote:
EDIT: to your edit: it comes down to members of the community being even more thankless and basically making content that they themselves will really not have much use to play - instead creating for the future of the game, in hopes that other people will come and enjoy the game, gain the knowledge of the basics, and do for the newer group of newer players what we did for them, etc. Last edited by TC_Halogen; 09-30-2016 at 07:43 PM.. |
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