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Old 09-30-2016, 05:19 PM   #61
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

It also has something to do with people being closed-minded in general, as well...
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:19 PM   #62
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

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It also has something to do with people being closed-minded in general, as well...
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:26 PM   #63
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Every game fills its own niche, stepmania for practicing since it runs the best and has the best options (judge, rates etc) most customizable, FFR when you actually want your scores to "matter" since it has the best leaderboards, and osu if you want to weeb out since every ranked map is anime Kappa

Its not like this is some melee vs brawl tier shit, all the vsrg are basically the same gameplay wise..

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Old 09-30-2016, 05:31 PM   #64
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

So hold on someone stop me if I sound fucking crazy but here's what I think

- We don't need to give a shit about new player retention rates of our game

This community is never going to outdo osu at convincing a bunch of 12 year olds that playing 3 star maps to anime ops all day is the singular focus of their lives. Sure stepmania has a lot of draw to new players it's just masked by the incredible barrier to entry the game currently possesses. I have frequently talked about the concept of specifically creating a pack that mimics ffr's 1-10 difficulty level designed to handhold new players through the introductory elements of the game and I've wanted to see this done for years now but while everyone agrees that it's a good idea nobody has once stepped up and said to me hey why don't we get rolling on this. And before you ask me why I don't just do it myself I want to be 100% honest about something. I really, really don't give a shit how large this community is. I'm going to keep playing until I don't think the game is fun anymore and then I'm going to go do something else. As much as there are people here who I like and respect and have forged friendships with, the nameless faceless concept of a massive community full of dawdling fawning preteens does not appeal to me. It seems from my perspective that very little gets done unless I do it myself (with respect to the 4k kb community) and I've honestly been doing a lot of that and the natural consequence of this is that I only end up doing what I want to see done, and an effective introductory experience to new players is just not a priority. It would be nice sure, but so would a lot of things in life. So let's talk about why we shouldn't give a shit about new player retention rates.

- Stepmania is one of if not the most matured kb community in the world.

This is inarguable at this point. We have a disturbingly long lineage of high quality playable (read: not stupid fuck promotional videos that exist to disguise the absence of playable) content. We have fostered the growth of dozens of the best kb charters in the world many of whom are still active and producing wonderful content to this very day. Despite constant declarations of death the charting community is as or more active than it was in 2007, and on top of this is exerting a large influence on the charting meta within communities such as osu. Charting aside the sm kb community also has the greatest wealth and concentration of player knowledge in existence. I'm talking about real knowledge, not the whole fucking "hahhaha osu makes u better at league of legends because both game involve using ur mouse!!!! hahahaha 430xxxsniperwindowwipersz" bullshit. I'm talking the kind of knowledge that is the result of more than a decade of players breaking down and analyzing the game and how it's played and putting it back together from the ground up.

These are our advantages as a community, this is what we should embrace, and if we want the community to grow (and by we I mean you guys) you need to target the right demographic. And that demographic is the players in other games that have grown enough to realize that their respective communities just don't cut it outside of drawing players in. That's where stepmania excels, everywhere else we don't. We have the capacity to retain those players and once you get the ball rolling there they'll go back and tell their buddies "hey you know osu is actually kind of a total fucking dud in terms of literally everything outside weaboox factor I'm gonna go play stepmania you guys should too".

Sadly the stepmania transitional experience here is also total dogshit. Sadly stepmania visibility is also pretty terrible, though admittedly not as bad as the transitional experience. People aren't going to realize how bad their game is unless they can see a better alternative and importantly that alternative is easily accessible. Stepmania also lacks a couple of key features that really add gravity to the draw. We're talking online rankings and leaderboards, a centralized nexus site where players can track their improvement over time and compete against other players. Centralized resources for newer players transitioning from other games to help get them started. Centralized resources on how to improve, discussions on different methods of approach to the game. Wow deja vu this is really starting to feel familiar, like I already tried doing this for everyone already. Anyway, for some people online play is a huge part of the draw. Smo isn't great but it's not bad and with a little work it could be much better.

The reality here is this is the best shot stepmania has right now of expanding at any rate beyond what it is now (if it is indeed even expanding), if we can't do this. If we can't fucking convince the people just playing
osumania 4k
osumania 4k
osumania 4k
that they should be playing Stepmania instead, then we have no goddamn hope in the first place.
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:39 PM   #65
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Stupid idea incoming:

Just speaking for myself here, but I think it would be fun to experiment with having performance tied to something in some way other than mere self-improvement, and one obvious approach is to make Stepmania a sub-mechanic in some larger game.

For example, an RPG where battling is done via DDR -- short little songs for enemies (which also allows for repetition / practice of simple step patterns) or for groups of enemies, longer songs for harder enemies, really long songs for bosses, harder bosses that start slamming you with modifiers, courses, etc.

Or if you really want to get tricky, maybe in some cases you have to play Doubles, or 5-panel, or whatever. Sky's the limit.

This sort of approach can also provide a clear path for newcomers while also incrementally building on their skill levels (you could also adjust the initial difficulty mode if you want to start on a more appropriate level, though). And since everyone would be starting this anew, it would help foster a community feel.

Of course, developing something like this would probably be resource-intensive to do right, but it would be an interesting way to play the game if you've become bored with the usual "ehhh flip through song wheel, find something interesting, play it, and repeat these steps for 10+ years" mode of operation.

I simply don't believe that relying on Stepmania alone is going to be enough if the plan is to someone expand the community... that's an exercise in futility, IMO.

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Old 09-30-2016, 05:40 PM   #66
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

don't think any of your points are crazy in the slightest - disagree with a few (perhaps because of misunderstandings); will respond after eating some pizza, etc.
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:40 PM   #67
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

if SMO was improved a little bit, idk maybe update the interface and add new features (i'm no designer/programmer, i do some VBA/SQL and thats about it) it could be competitive to osumania 4k and start taking players over. one idea would be to write network code to connect single files or entire packs to SMO online with a "shop" interface so files can be downloaded right in the SMO client instead of externally (lol ripped from osu i think?). it'd just sap HTML from a specific page, grab .zip files from one URL (ie SMO's pack page) and compile it into a shop... not sure if this is possible. that way when packs come out (zips are added to the page) anyone in SMO could see that in the "shop."
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:41 PM   #68
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

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Originally Posted by TC_Halogen View Post
Not an unpopular opinion at all, especially with the way that you brought your point across. self-improvement is a huge part of the game, and yes, is a huge part of this niche community. However, that alone, for me, doesn't make the game competitive (and there's no argument back and forth for this: we both will have to agree to disagree because it's very much black or white in my eyes). Anyone can improve at a hobby because they aspire to be better, but that doesn't mean you're being competitive with yourself as much as it is a desire become more proficient (proficiency vs. competition are two different roads imo). Take playing an instrument for example: certainly, you could aspire to perform better than someone else, but if you're using simply playing to get better without benchmarking against someone else, then I feel like the competitive element is null. I certainly respect your opinion, though being that regardless of that minor point: self-improvement is huge.
i guess we can all agree that stepmania is a highly subjective game

like playing an instrument, it's really up to the player to set their own goals and intentions. seems like most of us have our own ideas as to what the point of stepmania is as a whole, in terms of relating to a grander community

i've kind of lost track of who wants what here

i think i'm agreeing with some contributors to this conversation in that we're better off catering the small community as it is. but there are others here who want more universally friendly content for the game.

subjectivemania 2016?
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:42 PM   #69
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Quote:
For example, an RPG where battling is done via DDR -- short little songs for enemies (which also allows for repetition / practice of simple step patterns) or for groups of enemies, longer songs for harder enemies, really long songs for bosses, harder bosses that start slamming you with modifiers, courses, etc.
bro thats the best idea ive ever heard yo make it like an xp system n shit, like yo imagine a huge boss battle to get to a new division

too bad no one can make it, and whoever has the ability to actually make a game like this ends up creating l0lanotherpadgame http://store.steampowered.com/app/340960/
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:43 PM   #70
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

That game exists, and I think it just came outt: "The Metronomicon"
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:46 PM   #71
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

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bro thats the best idea ive ever heard yo make it like an xp system n shit, like yo imagine a huge boss battle to get to a new division

too bad no one can make it, and whoever has the ability to actually make a game like this ends up creating l0lanotherpadgame http://store.steampowered.com/app/340960/
holy shit will you shut up and actually contribute rather than spewing bullshit
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Old 09-30-2016, 05:57 PM   #72
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

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That game exists, and I think it just came outt: "The Metronomicon"
Wait what? That just came out yesterday.

I've been rattling this DDR + RPG idea around in my head for years, finally say it out loud, and I'm one day late?



In all seriousness it's a lot different from what I had in mind, but still, looks interesting!

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Old 09-30-2016, 06:05 PM   #73
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

gud thred
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Old 09-30-2016, 06:10 PM   #74
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

mina summed up my sentiment waaaay better than i did.

and like, yo, i do not want to play an rpg.

there's a point to it all being the way it is. stepmania is, in my opinion, amazing in its simplicity. that's why simfiles and keyboard play have developed so much over the years.

gimmicks won't make stepmania better

edit: furthermore, it's not the community's fault that not many people took interest and stuck with it. it's that the vast majority of people just don't see the appeal in getting into the game - the people that do get into stepmania, though, get into it real heavy, and that level of play and commitment isn't worth sacrificing for lower standards or more gimmicks. so like, if the masses don't get it, fuck em :/

sorry if this all sounds pretentious

love u guys

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Old 09-30-2016, 06:17 PM   #75
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

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Originally Posted by sunn0glasses View Post
mina summed up my sentiment waaaay better than i did.

and like, yo, i do not want to play an rpg.

there's a point to it all being the way it is. stepmania is, in my opinion, amazing in its simplicity. that's why simfiles and keyboard play have developed so much over the years.

gimmicks won't make stepmania better
gimmicks wont make stepmania better, but apparently they will make more 12 year olds play it, as displayed by the undertale mod charts.
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Old 09-30-2016, 06:37 PM   #76
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

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Originally Posted by sunn0glasses View Post
mina summed up my sentiment waaaay better than i did.

and like, yo, i do not want to play an rpg.

there's a point to it all being the way it is. stepmania is, in my opinion, amazing in its simplicity. that's why simfiles and keyboard play have developed so much over the years.

gimmicks won't make stepmania better

edit: furthermore, it's not the community's fault that not many people took interest and stuck with it. it's that the vast majority of people just don't see the appeal in getting into the game - the people that do get into stepmania, though, get into it real heavy, and that level of play and commitment isn't worth sacrificing for lower standards or more gimmicks. so like, if the masses don't get it, fuck em :/

sorry if this all sounds pretentious

love u guys
I agree that it could be considered a gimmick -- but my overall point is that I think you have to do something new and interesting if you want to expand past a point of saturation / plateauing.

If the goal is to focus on Stepmania alone, the most important piece IMO is to have a centralized online experience with multiplayer support, as well as a dedicated pathway for newcomers. Without those two things, I have no idea how you'd get anywhere doing anything else. There are way too many barriers to entry with steep learning curves otherwise.

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Old 09-30-2016, 06:47 PM   #77
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

So let's address this point by point.

First off, I completely, vehemently disagree with your first point only based off of the way to preface your explanation for it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace View Post
- We don't need to give a shit about new player retention rates of our game

This community is never going to outdo osu at convincing a bunch of 12 year olds that playing 3 star maps to anime ops all day is the singular focus of their lives.
Just because there is a huge community of players that will automatically flock over towards osu! and what it entails does not mean, under any circumstance, that we should be giving up in acquiring and keeping players in our sights and waiting them to stay around. Yes, you'll have a bunch of the players that you've blanketed and stereotyped, but that doesn't mean that there's literally nobody else who plays the game. Assuming as such is ridiculous.

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Sure stepmania has a lot of draw to new players it's just masked by the incredible barrier to entry the game currently possesses. I have frequently talked about the concept of specifically creating a pack that mimics ffr's 1-10 difficulty level designed to handhold new players through the introductory elements of the game and I've wanted to see this done for years now but while everyone agrees that it's a good idea nobody has once stepped up and said to me hey why don't we get rolling on this.
Being very point blank here, and it's going to sound harsh, but I honestly don't care: with you indicating and being very visible, first-hand proof of this begin the case -- you of all people know that inaction leads to nothing, and the fact of the matter is: no one has to ask you to get something done if they don't want to. Nobody requires your approval to do anything. With regards to beginners not being targeted, they have: in fact, if you're talking about FFR's old-scale 1-10 difficulty (which could arguably be at the beginner/intermediate levels of play), there are two packs (Stepping Stones of StepMania 1/2) that have been released that help to cater to these people. Additionally, since patterning at this level is highly trivial, it's very easy to link out to official DDR/ITG packs, because they're at the level that patterning is not going to matter nearly as much as gaining the foundation of the game is. There is no lack of playable content -- the fact of the matter is that StepMania is HORRIBLY fucking segregated amongst a million different places and not one person wants to go and make a legitimate hub that caters to everyone. There hasn't been a focused effort, in the slightest.

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And before you ask me why I don't just do it myself I want to be 100% honest about something. I really, really don't give a shit how large this community is. I'm going to keep playing until I don't think the game is fun anymore and then I'm going to go do something else. As much as there are people here who I like and respect and have forged friendships with, the nameless faceless concept of a massive community full of dawdling fawning preteens does not appeal to me. It seems from my perspective that very little gets done unless I do it myself (with respect to the 4k kb community) and I've honestly been doing a lot of that and the natural consequence of this is that I only end up doing what I want to see done, and an effective introductory experience to new players is just not a priority. It would be nice sure, but so would a lot of things in life. So let's talk about why we shouldn't give a shit about new player retention rates.
Targeting the red area of the post here, I initially wanted to lash out in response to this until I took a moment to read the second, and most important part of that. Let's get one thing clear: your optimizations and ideas to the game recently have been great for the really high-end players found here, between improving the performance of the game and making a much more logical score system. But your improvements are not going to bring anyone to play the game, let's get that thing clear. You actually acknowledge this quite well by saying that your work is not specifically done to make an effective introductory experience to new players -- this is important, because it shows that you're aware of the problem. You're not a part of the solution though. You have that capability, but as someone who is spearheading other things, it's not something that you should be focused on, nor is it your responsibility by any means - i'd argue that the actual developers of StepMania should be working on making the game more accessible for everyone, but when you have a hard-headed, overly opinionated, incapable-of-taking-any-sort-of-fucking-advice front facing developer who thinks his word is right and nothing else (looking at you: Kyzentun, don't think I've not heard what you've said about me) and no one else on the team really standing up to it, it's kinda hard to take things seriously/get things done.

But let's not take the time to forget about all of the people who have come to produce the game content that everyone plays. There are is a LOT of playable content that has been spearheaded by individual community members that are supported by content creators everywhere to make them a success. If the main community contributors who know how to leverage the tools to create content would stop focusing on catering to the main community and work on bringing new things for the players who might be trying to get into the game, we could see an increase in player retention. This is something that matters to me personally.

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- Stepmania is one of if not the most matured kb community in the world.

This is inarguable at this point. We have a disturbingly long lineage of high quality playable (read: not stupid fuck promotional videos that exist to disguise the absence of playable) content. We have fostered the growth of dozens of the best kb charters in the world many of whom are still active and producing wonderful content to this very day. Despite constant declarations of death the charting community is as or more active than it was in 2007, and on top of this is exerting a large influence on the charting meta within communities such as osu.
As someone who has resided in the osu!mania community for a while and actually wanted to go through the ranking process, I will say outright that the influence of SM charting is absolutely NOT a large influence of the meta in osu! -- in fact, as of late, people are occasionally finding reasons to avoid the charting meta that came from StepMania because the charts are a.) too predictable and b.) absolutely do not utilize all of the potential that the game has. The charting community is not as active as it was in 2007 in the slightest: volume is not an indicator of activity when the majority of activity back then was contained within community packs and the activity now is (mostly) releasing featuring single or small numbers of stepartists to produce massive amounts of content. In both cases, neither are helping the solution because they continue to target the niche, and elite parts of the community (in terms of players/ability).

I also feel like the red part that I've highlighted serves to target those who spend time incorporating elements from the other game to increase the attention that they get: being perfectly honest, but that's the kind of content that has the highest potential in netting players in - sure, it gives a perception of the game that's not quite the same as what you'd expect, but the game also comes with stock files that are much more normal and give players an idea of what the game is like. Conversely, if someone wants to find more content that is heavier in mods and visual effects, they can look around a bit and find them.

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Charting aside the sm kb community also has the greatest wealth and concentration of player knowledge in existence. I'm talking about real knowledge, not the whole fucking "hahhaha osu makes u better at league of legends because both game involve using ur mouse!!!! hahahaha 430xxxsniperwindowwipersz" bullshit. I'm talking the kind of knowledge that is the result of more than a decade of players breaking down and analyzing the game and how it's played and putting it back together from the ground up.
This I will agree with, personally. Though, I'd argue that the game's meta lately has devolved being that the front-facing and most skilled members play nothing but extremely fast shit or dumpy files. This also comes down to the fact that content creation is not as boisterous as it used to be -- it's more of the same kinda of super-high-end, playable-for-only-the-top that leaves lower players in the dust. The analytical abilities we have as a community would be immensely helpful... if we had players that we could pass our skills down to for them to improve and pass those skills down to, etc.

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Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace View Post
These are our advantages as a community, this is what we should embrace, and if we want the community to grow (and by we I mean you guys) you need to target the right demographic. And that demographic is the players in other games that have grown enough to realize that their respective communities just don't cut it outside of drawing players in. That's where stepmania excels, everywhere else we don't. We have the capacity to retain those players and once you get the ball rolling there they'll go back and tell their buddies "hey you know osu is actually kind of a total fucking dud in terms of literally everything outside weaboox factor I'm gonna go play stepmania you guys should too".
Targeting players in other games is effective, but I don't believe it's effective in the way that you say. This also kinda ties into the first response that I made to you: just because players have a perception of one game doesn't mean they're going to automatically take action to play another, much like you can't assume that a player is automatically going to stay with a game because the appearance of it is appealing -- mechanics may cause them to turn away. Word of mouth is a great way to get exposure out there, but when it's simply "hey you should play this because i do", you're opening up people who might just turn anyway from the game. Opinion does jack shit in keeping people around. Good experiences do keep people around. It's why I mention things involving mods and other cool visual effects that stretch the limitations of the engine: they can be used to incorporate characters that are familiar to them outside of dance games and bring them into the game as a crazy introduction to what this seemingly simple game can do.

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Sadly the stepmania transitional experience here is also total dogshit. Sadly stepmania visibility is also pretty terrible, though admittedly not as bad as the transitional experience. People aren't going to realize how bad their game is unless they can see a better alternative and importantly that alternative is easily accessible. Stepmania also lacks a couple of key features that really add gravity to the draw. We're talking online rankings and leaderboards, a centralized nexus site where players can track their improvement over time and compete against other players. Centralized resources for newer players transitioning from other games to help get them started. Centralized resources on how to improve, discussions on different methods of approach to the game. Wow deja vu this is really starting to feel familiar, like I already tried doing this for everyone already. Anyway, for some people online play is a huge part of the draw. Smo isn't great but it's not bad and with a little work it could be much better.
I agree with this completely, and I'll be one to say that you of all people have the right to be annoyed about it. SMleaderboards could have been something great, but well... y'know. You're aware that there's not a hub for all of this, and your frustrations are definitely confounded. And yes, SMO could easily be improved. Fuckin' hell, you want to make StepMania more spectator friendly? Why not make a tournament-like client that looks somewhat like osu!'s? I think that's one of the great things they have: they make the competitive element of the game more appealing. In a discussion that Etienne had with someone else regarding a tournament that was going to be run (and eventually got cancelled), he mentioned this:



StepMania already has the capability of live tracking and online play; the people who are developing shit for the game could try to enhance the competitive element to be a bit better so that it's more appealing to watch. That's somewhat more for the niche crowd, but the appearance of competition at a high level might bring in players who are at the lower level that want to learn and get better (as addressed by sunn0glasses a few posts ago).

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Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace View Post
The reality here is this is the best shot stepmania has right now of expanding at any rate beyond what it is now (if it is indeed even expanding), if we can't do this. If we can't fucking convince the people just playing
osumania 4k
osumania 4k
osumania 4k
that they should be playing Stepmania instead, then we have no goddamn hope in the first place.
Nothing is hopeless if the community actually unifies and works in the right direction.
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Old 09-30-2016, 06:49 PM   #78
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

additional post to tack to things: it's not like osu! and other games don't have a super high barrier of entry too. those games take time to learn and master much like any other mode. yet, players who are somewhat newer come in out of the fucking woodwork and start destroying the game - remember those 12 year olds you so callously attack? well one of them is #5 in the world in osu! standard, so... don't be so quick to dismiss -- age is only a number and some of the best players can come from a very young age.

EDIT: trying to find this video, but there's a -very- young PH player that i saw a video of doing Speed of Link [Extra] (don't think it was meatmap, could be wrong) that iirc, was only 11? again, age doesn't mean shit, so let's stop being condescending...

Last edited by TC_Halogen; 09-30-2016 at 06:53 PM..
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Old 09-30-2016, 07:37 PM   #79
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

well obviously on the one hand not every 12 year old is a driveling sack of shit who only wants to play anime ops

but by the same token that i shouldn't apply that generalization to each one you can't really expect me to take one or two examples of not retarded 12 year olds and change my mind about them holistically

on the subject of an introductory experience what i'm talking about is a pack that is packaged with the game itself ideally with free music or public domain music so there aren't any issues with distribution that is specifically crafted for a new player experience. That is with a custom difficulty scale that is implemented and a very specific curve of progression. It's not even necessary that new files have to be made for it, it can just be a compilation of pre-existing files from pre-existing packs that just get reorganized. This hasn't been done. Stepping stones is great if you know about it and know where to find it, the problem is if you're a beginner stepmania player you probably don't. That and the average file difficulty of the stepping stones series is significantly higher than what I'm thinking of. Either way you're right, nobody needs my permission to do this. Shit I would be happy if someone would do it on their own but you're also right, in that nobody is doing anything.

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Old 09-30-2016, 07:41 PM   #80
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Default Re: Make Stepmania Great Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace View Post
well obviously on the one hand not every 12 year old is a driveling sack of shit who only wants to play anime ops

but by the same token that i shouldn't apply that generalization to each one you can't really expect me to take one or two examples of not retarded 12 year olds and change my mind about them holistically

on the subject of an introductory experience what i'm talking about is a pack that is packaged with the game itself ideally with free music or public domain music so there aren't any issues with distribution that is specifically crafted for a new player experience.
fair enough on all fronts! it's a lot tougher now than it used to be before. it was nice when Newgrounds TOS basically allowed all of the music uploaded to it to be free for use -- revenue sharing programs prevent this from being possible now. still, there are still various songs around the internet with applicable CC-NC licenses.

EDIT: to your edit: it comes down to members of the community being even more thankless and basically making content that they themselves will really not have much use to play - instead creating for the future of the game, in hopes that other people will come and enjoy the game, gain the knowledge of the basics, and do for the newer group of newer players what we did for them, etc.

Last edited by TC_Halogen; 09-30-2016 at 07:43 PM..
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