04-22-2014, 08:59 PM | #21 |
sunshine and rainbows
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 41
Posts: 1,987
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Re: Gender and violence issues
Female genital mutilation involves completely cutting off her clitoris (because god forbid she gets pleasure) or some crazy crap like sewing her shut except to have sex with her.
Male genital mutilation, AFAIK, involves getting rid of foreskin. Keep in mind that the only reason there IS a push towards feminine issues is because feminism is being successful. Also, yes, you should be able to EASILY say that women have a harder time in society if you just don't look at the past 10 years in your specific area. All throughout history, women have been the primary caregivers for children which, even if not outright treated as second-class citizens, (which is just not the case) end up not having the opportunities to do things besides raise kids and look after the home. In most of the world women are still treated far worse than men. Sympathy is a good thing that comes from a good place, and I usually don't perceive that I'm being coddled like a 5 year old because someone is nice to me because I'm a woman. (Of course I'm also lucky enough to live in a place where I am not treated like a second class citizen.) I perceive that men, when not given the same consideration as I might be, are getting treated poorly. |
04-22-2014, 10:24 PM | #22 | ||
FFR Player
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Re: Gender and violence issues
I'm not going to make another lengthy post about the whole oppression thing (you can watch that last video I posted if you want and read the few posts above), it's not meant to be a competition of suffering. Still, it's good to remember that things are not as simple as the mainstream believes.
But, anyway, just a few details: Quote:
I never said it's "worse", since that's irrelevant, but it sure as hell shouldn't be considered as acceptable as it is today. It's mutilation on someone's body without consent. Period. If there really is a medical requirement for it, then fine, but it's completely unnecessary in the majority of cases. There's a lot of material on it, but here's a quick video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXbl83m0tQ0 Sure, it helps to prevent some diseases. Like taking out your lungs prevents lung cancer. Edit: Better video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acc70D2ApFg And part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPxjhLq3eUQ Quote:
You missed the point that rape is not a gendered issue that specifically targets women, as a lot of influential feminists seem to believe.
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04-22-2014, 10:29 PM | #23 |
End of the road
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Re: Gender and violence issues
I for one am very happy my parents got my nasty ass foreskin cut off so I wouldn't have to look at a gross ass dick everyday so speak for yourself
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04-22-2014, 10:49 PM | #24 | |
FFR Player
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Re: Gender and violence issues
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Edit: Interesting link: http://docakilah.wordpress.com/2011/...-masturbation/
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04-23-2014, 06:21 AM | #25 | |
behanjc & me are <3'ers
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Re: Gender and violence issues
Quote:
if you mean gross as in aesthetically it looks unappealing, then I would call this a problem with society's influence. the same way we criticize models for being too skinny and making girls feel self-conscious by creating unrealistic standards of beauty, society should also try to avoid making guys feel self-conscious about their dick, whether it's being cut or not, a size issue, endurance, etc. there also isn't that much of a difference when the penis is erect, as the foreskin pulls back anyways unfortunately, we cannot realistically control whether our dick is circumcised or not (cutting is a scary thought and "uncutting" isn't exactly straightforward either), and there is no significant positive reason for circumcision (people may disagree here), so it shouldn't be something that is encouraged
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04-23-2014, 08:07 AM | #26 |
Very Grave Indeed
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Re: Gender and violence issues
It's still definitely the case that comparing circumcision to the kind of female genital mutilation which is still practised in some parts of the world is absolutely asinine in about the same way as comparing putting handcuffs on a thief when they are arrested versus chopping off the hand of a thief under Shari-ah law would be.
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04-23-2014, 09:59 AM | #27 |
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Re: Gender and violence issues
Do you think there can exist a case in which you would not consider it asinine to remove part of a human's genitalia for ideological reasons, if it were done in a surgically precise manner?
If yes/no, why? As an exercise, try not to use axiomatic values without explaining why they may be used. (This is just a teacher-esque question to provoke discussion) |
04-23-2014, 10:09 AM | #28 | |
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Re: Gender and violence issues
Quote:
Try to think of it this way: What level of female genital cutting (as minimal as it can be) without the girl's consent would be considered acceptable in our society? Also, your analogy is atrocious. You are completely ignoring the damage done by circumcision.
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04-23-2014, 12:02 PM | #29 |
Banned
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Re: Gender and violence issues
Why should we have to watch videos in order to understand your point?
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04-23-2014, 01:42 PM | #30 | |
behanjc & me are <3'ers
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Re: Gender and violence issues
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I think the best answer you can really say is as long as you're not forcing something significantly harmful on someone. If someone who is qualified to make that kind of decision on their own and chooses to do themselves harm, so be it. While there aren't any real benefits to circumcision, it technically does not strongly impact the general health of an individual, so it's not totally unjustified under simply ideological reasons. And that's exactly why it's not the same as the female genital cutting. Relatively speaking, there is far more damage done from the cutting of the female genitalia than the male.
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04-23-2014, 03:56 PM | #31 |
V's beta-male entourage
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Re: Gender and violence issues
Women are abusive in the emotional sense far more often than men ever are physically abusive. They get away with it because no actual physical harm is done, but they can easily lead to psychotic episodes due to how they manipulate their psyche.
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04-23-2014, 04:22 PM | #32 | ||
sunshine and rainbows
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Re: Gender and violence issues
Quote:
It's also not unheard of for mothers to get their female infant's ears pierced, although I suspect that that's probably quite a bit less painful than getting circumcised. Yet you don't get many people finding that abhorrent. Given that comparison, circumcision becomes a cultural problem that, because of what it is, only affects men. So to then say something like the idea that we think circumcision is OK because it happens to men and it's not OK for a woman because she's a woman, and that's the reason we aren't up in arms about circumcision, is just wrong. I mean, the feeling that I'm getting from what zaevod is saying about inequalities and poor treatment of men, is partially why I'm uncomfortable with calling myself a feminist too. Like, sexism does happen when people erroneously think of men or women as having quality x and they shouldn't have quality y, and I'm totally against that. But when someone then takes something that's ultimately not an issue with the sex of someone per se, but seems to affect more women than men, I guess that's when I have a hard time calling myself a feminist. Because I don't view it as a gendered issue necessarily? And I have that same sort of 'this isn't a gender issue ultimately' with some things that zaevod is saying. I dunno, maybe that's wrong. Maybe it's just that I know I just disagree with some feminist views and don't like labels in general and I don't want people to think one way of me if I identify as a feminist because I feel there's often, sadly, a negative connotation to the word. Quote:
I did not miss the point where women are often called victims re: the fact that men get raped in prison. I just don't see that women being called out as being the victims of rape and focussing on that, as taking away from this other, separate issue of 'rape in prisons'. I mean, ultimately, the issue is 'rape of people in a position of subjugation' which, sadly, especially in non European and north American countries, means it's generally rape of women, since women are subjugated and are physically smaller, etc. (How many large, burly men get raped in prison compared to smaller men? And there are questions like, if rapists who rape men in prison had access to women as well, I sincerely doubt the stats would stay the same.) And I've certainly seen in tv crime shows (regular Law and Order notably, the awesome show that it is), sadly portray a man who they arrested in error of a child molestation crime, only to find that they got killed in prison before learning of his innocence. It was a great show because it showed not only the horror that is our penitentiary system, but also created pathos for a man not treated justly. And pertinently for this discussion, it goes to show that such injustices I think are known to the population at large. Doesn't mean we can't try and do more about them though. The video posted in the OP did a decent (most of the time) job with keeping the 'feminists are a/the problem' at bay, because they're not the problem. Sexism towards males is a societal problem and if anything, feminism and the push towards gender/sex equality has just paved the way for us to actually perceive that men too are treated poorly and unfairly, largely in different ways. Last edited by Cavernio; 04-23-2014 at 04:42 PM.. |
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04-23-2014, 04:44 PM | #33 | |
sunshine and rainbows
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Re: Gender and violence issues
Quote:
In any case, such things are part of the reason why I'd like to read more about spanking as being this horrible, abusive thing to do. Is spanking really a separate bad thing from having a less loving, more controlling parent in general? |
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04-23-2014, 07:18 PM | #34 | ||
is against custom titles
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Re: Gender and violence issues
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Quote:
--Guido |
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04-23-2014, 07:52 PM | #35 | |||
urararararararara
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Re: Gender and violence issues
Quote:
Moreover "A lot of self-declared feminists claim to fight for equality but have done and said distasteful things" bears the heavy scent of paralogism, you're not proving anything with that claim, rather you imply without any sort of proof that feminism as a whole is a seemingly suspicious entity without ever really explaining why and this is actually problematic. That's a division fallacy. Quote:
That's an open door to very non sequitur claims. "Since you bear children for nine months you must take care of them more (because that's your role)" has the strong scent of fallacy because of how quick the conclusion is drawn from the first premise. There is little things in-between these two postulates and this is usually what reveals a fallacious argument. At most I think this is a very arbitrary idea. The fact men and women will never be absolutely equal do not in any way disqualify the intention of making them more equal on the social ground. It's like saying we do not have to ask for political freedom because an absolute freedom is irrational. Quote:
At least, that's what I personally believe. Saying male people have priviledges doesn't mean they don't suffer from any sort of prejudice and enjoy an absolute superiority universally reproduced everywhere in society (it's easy to make straw men when you first get wind of that "priviledge" concept), this just means that society as a whole essentially oppresses females (because they get as a base the role of the "dominated") and that males get the role of dominants despite their will and interests. Having that dominant role obviously causes a lot of prejudice but also implies that women are in a much less enviable situation generally speaking. I hope I helped making the position clearer and maybe more rational to your mind. Things are not as black and white you may believe feminists think but they have an understandable pattern.
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04-23-2014, 08:21 PM | #36 | |
sunshine and rainbows
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Re: Gender and violence issues
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04-24-2014, 07:30 AM | #37 | ||
urararararararara
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Re: Gender and violence issues
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So yes, I think sexist prejudices against men are caused by the same variable that give them an averagely superior position to women.
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04-30-2014, 03:34 AM | #38 | |
behanjc & me are <3'ers
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Re: Gender and violence issues
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Couple of examples: - oral sex - shaving of the pubes - whether or not we think it's acceptable to have sex before marriage All of these things, you'll find significant differences in preference between two groups of people. Generally speaking, groups of people that are more liberal about issues of sex, watch pornography, etc, tend to enjoy oral sex more, prefer shaved genitalia, and think it's okay to have sex before marriage.
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05-1-2014, 12:51 PM | #39 |
sunshine and rainbows
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Re: Gender and violence issues
That'd be correlation if true stargroup, not causational.
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05-1-2014, 03:02 PM | #40 | ||
Very Grave Indeed
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Re: Gender and violence issues
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Quote:
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