Why aren't rates above 1.0 counting for scores?

[EzExZeRo7497]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

At the same time, I am largely against rates because I spent a -lot- of time cleaning out my level ranks at normal pace as a very high level player, wishing that I was able to speed songs up. It absolutely frustrates me that players who were too lazy to go about finishing their ranks will have the potential opportunity to blast through them 1.5x, 1.75x, even 2x faster than those who didn't have that opportunity. That's one of the reasons why I feel like a player should be required to play a song fully at least once -- it doesn't give an inherent advantage of time for those who are playing the game for completion. There are a number of really high level players that are very strong players who refuse to touch the easier files for completion of the game, and I don't feel like they should be rewarded with a lack of patience. The argument of files being objectively harder does not apply to this, because the files don't become objectively hard enough to pose any sort of problem to these players; the mod becomes used advantageously.

I understand what you are saying, but with that logic we shouldn't have fixed with avmiss bug, 1x only, no mirror because it technically required more effort to plow through levelranks compared to it without the restrictions. I'd say the "objectively harder" argument still has some merit since although for higher-level players a higher rate wouldn't pose that much of an issue, if they are able to nail files at that rate, they deserve the AAA. Although the file is shorter on a rate, the file is still harder than it'll still be more tricky to AAA compared to it on 1.0. The "one full play" part is excessive since although it does prevent laziness, it'll also prevent most players from even playing the file to begin with, which defeats the purpose of rate recording altogether since chances are you will NEVER get a better score on a higher rate than on 1.0, aside from accidental flags.

I apologize if it comes off as biased mainly because I'm also a high-leveled player as well, if it does come off as biased, it's unintentional.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

At the same time, I am largely against rates because I spent a -lot- of time cleaning out my level ranks at normal pace as a very high level player, wishing that I was able to speed songs up. It absolutely frustrates me that players who were too lazy to go about finishing their ranks will have the potential opportunity to blast through them 1.5x, 1.75x, even 2x faster than those who didn't have that opportunity. That's one of the reasons why I feel like a player should be required to play a song fully at least once -- it doesn't give an inherent advantage of time for those who are playing the game for completion. There are a number of really high level players that are very strong players who refuse to touch the easier files for completion of the game, and I don't feel like they should be rewarded with a lack of patience.

I've asked this question before, but not directly to you, why do you think that tedium or boredom should be considered a skill factor? Is it merely because you had to deal with the tedium, because if so, that really doesn't seem fair or progressive for FFR.

We seem to be on completely different sides of the spectrum here actually, now that I think about it. The sole reason why I care about rates recording is to encourage people to play easier files (by giving the reward of having fun and having the score record), where you are more in for the competitive side of harder files. I want FFR to be fun for everyone, not just a small part of FFR, but all of it. Rates recording for lower level songs could help accomplish that goal quite well. Otherwise, for a decent player, a pretty large portion of the song list is quite boring, and will never be touched by them because of this. They shouldn't have to be bored or annoyed, the only thing they should have to do is have fun. Hence why, quite a few higher tier players skipped over tons of files, because they want to have fun while playing.

[TC_Halogen]

I don't see how that's hilarious at all.

If you have the option of completing a task fully in half of the time, you can't seriously sit there and tell me you wouldn't take advantage of it. There are people making arguments that rates reduce the boredom, but boredom is a subjective term. I strongly feel like a lack of motivation to grind it out is laziness -- full completion of games occasionally have an issue with being tedious; the fact of the matter is that people want to minimize the amount of time spent on playing songs considerably below their skill level, and rates will do just that for files that are considerably easier. There's also the inherent advantage of shifting discrepant frames closer on offsync legacy files, another advantage that I greatly disagree with (despite the whole legacy files even existing, but that's another argument altogether).

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

If you have the option of completing a task fully in half of the time, you can't seriously sit there and tell me you wouldn't take advantage of it. There are people making arguments that rates reduce the boredom, but boredom is a subjective term. I strongly feel like a lack of motivation to grind it out is laziness -- full completion of games occasionally have an issue with being tedious; the fact of the matter is that people want to minimize the amount of time spent on playing songs considerably below their skill level, and rates will do just that for files that are considerably easier. There's also the inherent advantage of shifting discrepant frames closer on offsync legacy files, another advantage that I greatly disagree with (despite the whole legacy files even existing, but that's another argument altogether).

That is the entire point, to encourage people to play the files on rates, because they never will any other way (unless they are within their skill range).

FFR isn't a job, where not doing something particularly boring can be construed as lazy, it is a game. What I don't think you are understanding from my perspective is that FFR should be encouraging people to be interested in completing it, because it is a fun and enjoyable task. That doesn't mean it can't be difficult, but it does mean that it shouldn't be tedious. If you don't give people something enjoyable for them, they won't play it, simple as that. We should be doing all we can to make as much of FFR fun for as many players as possible, not trying to push players away from it. We can give players more to do, while having fun doing it, and as an added bonus, give additional recognition to step artists and musicians who happened to meet the fate of being part of an easy file. All we have to do is let this feature slide in without any of this perquisites, and the rest will happen on it's own.

As for the legacy stuff, personally, if it can make the files any less horrific to play, by all means I wouldn't mind that in the least. All that does is make higher skilled players have to spend less time being frustrated with off sync files, and more time enjoying the game as a whole. I mean hell, if we can make the legacy files feel slightly better by essentially doing nothing to them, that sounds wonderful!

[TC_Halogen]

That's a point that I'll disagree with too, because the rate mod is a catalyst for people to fill out things they otherwise wouldn't have done. It motivates people to play only because they know they can do it under their own controlled constraints. In my opinion, that argument is irresolvable, and I'm not budging. It has the potential to be fun, but if people want to have fun with the files, they should have to play the file at least once so that they aren't abusing the system and speeding the process up.

FFR isn't a job -- neither is any other game that requires a ton of time to get anywhere. Tell that to people who play RPGs/MMOs/etc. and grind for loot/experience. They're not jobs, they're just games. If you want to encourage the completion of a game, you need to encourage it to as much of the community as possible. I can tell you right now -- offering people the advantage of speeding through the game is not one of them.

What I feel like people aren't understanding is this: playing songs on rates to make the game more enjoyable is a subjective opinion (as is playing the song on lower rates and having it boring is a subjective opinion). Time is an objective metric, is not opinionated, and should not be manipulated for the sake of completion. Anyone here can make the argument that "x rhythm game allows for rates and doesn't disqualify you", but in those other rhythm games, there is absolutely nothing bogging you down if you opt out of playing songs you dislike. On FFR, ranks are calculated for every public song, and have been for a long time. Circumventing long distances of time for further completion is unfair to those who had to complete the game when that option wasn't available. This same argument can be applied for the replacement and removal of legacy files (which I also hold a relative indifference to) in an objective manner (charting standards/availability for making accurate charts).

Step-artists and musicians "meeting the fate of being part of an easy file"... what? If you compare easier files to harder ones, you'll notice that more players actually play the easier files than the harder ones -- it's not like the files are being less enjoyed. Keep in mind that these totals also account for the fact that people avoid lower files due to being "boring".

With how desirable rate mods are, putting a prerequisite of one finished run per song (and NOT retroactively, meaning after this feature is released, players should play the songs they want again) will cause the game to get played considerably more, because people are going to want to rate mod their favorites.

Trust me, this argument is irresolvable. It's easy to defend both sides with objective points.

EDIT: also: @ Eze -- the difference between avmiss and this is that avmiss affected the overall gaming mechanic as a rhythm game - rate mods don't detrimentally affect anything involving the game itself.

[popsicle_3000]

yes halogen.

it's not that complicated, in order to play the song in a different way and have it record, must have played through once normally. what's the big deal w/ that??

and if someone else brings up this whole "well boredom isn't a skill"...... WTF??!?!?!!
you want to work on level ranks? then be prepared to play the song normally first!!! gosh...

you can still have fun on ffr without clearing level ranks. if you don't want to put in the time to play easy songs, then tough cookies. I've spent hours and hours working through level ranks, playing SSSG over and over, playing... anyways,

if you're a high ranked player, and want to get to ave rank 1, then be prepared to grind it out.
I've seen a few people now like hakulyte and godnick who've reset their level ranks and then go through and re-aaa everything. it's not the worst thing.
i'm tired of people wanting shortcuts to being lazy with the game.

people like eze and leonid who haven't played through all the songs, it doesn't make them any less good. they are among the top, and we know that cuz of their scores on hard songs.

you don't see doss complaining now do you about having to aaa all the easy songs since he's been inactive for the last 8 months or so...

[i love you]

I think I am pretty much in the middle of both arguments.

While I do agree with AJ about people taking advantage of rates on easy files, I also have to agree with foxfire that players should be encouraged to play the game...

Honestly, after looking through this thread several times, I do not know who to agree with. Basically, if we can not get most of the community to agree with one side of the debate along with whoever is higher in power then arcnmx, this thread will probably go no where.

[EzExZeRo7497]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

EDIT: also: @ Eze -- the difference between avmiss and this is that avmiss affected the overall gaming mechanic as a rhythm game - rate mods don't detrimentally affect anything involving the game itself.

I'm aware of that, avmiss is probably a bad example to begin with since although it does force players to hit some parts of the file in a different way (aka making it harder), it is a flaw in the gaming mechanics in itself. Sorry about that. Yeah, I agree that the argument can't really be resolved to begin with since both sides of the argument can be backed up with objective evidence/reasoning but it's also a subjective thing in that which side of the argument has more weightage.

On another note, I probably wouldn't be playing all of the long easy songs either way, since I really have no interest in fixing my levelranks at all. Sorry Pop

[Hakulyte]

It should be left to 1.0x because people could use rates to sandbag their own levelranks for tournaments.
Not even going to bother about grandtotal farming because it's debatable but it's not changing that faster farming become possible.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

It should be left to 1.0x because people could use rates to sandbag their own levelranks for tournaments.
Not even going to bother about grandtotal farming because it's debatable but it's not changing that faster farming become possible.

- holy shit at the bolded point, NEVER would have thought of that
- the second point is arguable - it comes with a tradeoff with not having a particularly good choice in files to consistently GTS boost because those densely layered files start to kill you pretty fast, haha

[Choofers]

Just have arc flip a coin

heads, rates count
tails, rates don't count

[HalfStep]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

- holy shit at the bolded point, NEVER would have thought of that

There's many many many ways to sandbag a tournament, if someone so desires. Rates won't prevent or enable people to do that either way.

[Hakulyte]

My point is that you can play at your best while conserving horrible scores which wasn't possible before.

[Choofers]

Rates would just make it a lot easier to sandbag.

Maybe rates showing on levelranks would be a good idea then, but as a flag showing that the current score was done with rates, without showing what the actual rate was.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Choofers

Just have arc flip a coin

heads, rates count
tails, rates don't count

(y)

honestly, you really could fight both ways pretty strongly -- it might as well just be a coin-toss. The most feasible solution requires a lot of data storage, and that would of course be a separate leaderboard that in no way affects public ranks... this way, people would have to still play their files on 1.0 rate for rank improvement, but could also put their names up on leaderboards for accomplishments of higher rates, haha.

Originally Posted by HalfStep

There's many many many ways to sandbag a tournament, if someone so desires. Rates won't prevent or enable people to do that either way.

You are correct - it certainly doesn't prevent or enable people. It does make it easier to do in a faster period, but that's about it. It's still something I never would have even considered, though.

[HalfStep]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

My point is that you can play at your best while conserving horrible scores which wasn't possible before.

Just play with no background mod. Now no scores record and you can play at your best. Or with Judge Window that doesn't actually change Judge Windows. Or play without logging in.

[Hakulyte]

Cool examples, but irrelevant since they don't record to begin with. :'(

[HalfStep]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

Cool examples, but irrelevant since they don't record to begin with. :'(

Exactly. Now you can skillboost with no one noticing and keep all your shitty scores in your levelranks.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

honestly, you really could fight both ways pretty strongly -- it might as well just be a coin-toss. The most feasible solution requires a lot of data storage, and that would of course be a separate leaderboard that in no way affects public ranks... this way, people would have to still play their files on 1.0 rate for rank improvement, but could also put their names up on leaderboards for accomplishments of higher rates, haha.

Just going to say that although I agree having a rates leader-board would be pretty awesome, I'm not exactly sure how it should be done. If we were to have a new board for every rate (the only way I can imagine scores being compared objectively that aren't AAA's) it could lead to a large number of pretty dead or unused score pages (by someone playing a file on a bunch of crazy rates that people probably won't repeat, or if we are locked into .1x multiples, really high rates to ensure 1st place on a new board. If we only looked at AAA scores, it would take away the ability to compete well with harder files. How would we reach some sort of ideal when talking about something like this?

Also, no matter what happens with this whole rates thing, can we at least all agree that rates should give GTS and credits? Can we at least give some sort of reward for playing the files?

[Choofers]

credits / rate