Regarding all future officials

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

qqwref's already shown both scoring types are possible to register at the same time.

Actually that's not the deciding factor here - it's more that, since we already track the PGAMBC counts, and because the dashboard system is separate from the normal high score system, we can just recalculate raw score in the dashboard itself.

The indeed system has separate high score tables for combo and raw scoring... not really an option for FFR unless we can get a lot more space, since the high score tables are already pretty gigantic.

[gabrieljd]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to what I said. Someone told Trevor of our plans and he in turn posted about it on the forums for everyone to see. I didn't want that, I wanted to surprise people with the raw scoring for this upcoming tournament.

Oh nevermind, the way you worded the last post it seemed like you were blaming the fact tournament raw scoring was revealed before the tournament itself on this thread.

[8 Hour Whore]

You are either good enough or not.
Combo scoring has been how its always been should stay. Yes this is coming from someone who frequently miss flags. You get it all or nothing. That's how game stats work that's how it should remain.
You people want to change this site too much. (A.k.a difficulty system) some things should just stay the same.

[gnr61]

are you a republican or smething dude

[One Winged Angel]

Until FFR scores themselves are ranked in accordance with raw scoring (which, spoiler: will most likely never happen), I don't think tournaments should utilize raw scoring.

That just doesn't make sense to me at all.

So Player A missflags EHHS and Player B has a mashed 100+g score. Player B gets a better rank than Player A, which, I'll admit, isn't reflecting a true skill comparison between the two players. Nevertheless, Player B has a better rank. But because this tourney's being run with raw scoring, the 'better rank' on the Official FFR scoreboards means nothing, and Player A advances. Sure, Player A had better PA, but Player B had the better rank in accordance with the current scoring system on FFR.

Change it for everything at once or change nothing at all, just my opinion.

[8 Hour Whore]

Originally Posted by gnr61

are you a republican or smething dude

No it's just every time I come back to this site someone is always trying to persuade their way into having it turn into SM. if you want to play SM go for it. Not saying all changes are bad but the most people strive for are just bullshit.

[Plan_Bsk81127]

I'd probably actually try in tourns if it used raw scoring.

[gnr61]

so it seems to me raw scoring can't/won't be implemented as the site-wide standard because it's too late/too difficult/convoluted, which is perfectly reasonable. but for those of us who contend that combo scoring is innately flawed it makes no sense not to eschew it wherever it's plausible to do so (ie tournaments; tier points). the argument to keep combo scoring for tournaments just because we're stuck with it for the game itself gets all knotted up when you factor in the (to many people convincing) premise that combo scoring is an inappropriate but necessary evil in the first place.

[Izzy]

Combo scoring is the epitome of stupid standards. I'm never playing this game again until raw scoring is the standard.

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Combo scoring is the epitome of stupid standards. I'm never playing this game again until raw scoring is the standard.

Go back to stepmania... and take me with you.

[One Winged Angel]

Originally Posted by gnr61

so it seems to me raw scoring can't/won't be implemented as the site-wide standard because it's too late/too difficult/convoluted, which is perfectly reasonable. but for those of us who contend that combo scoring is innately flawed it makes no sense not to eschew it wherever it's plausible to do so (ie tournaments; tier points). the argument to keep combo scoring for tournaments just because we're stuck with it for the game itself gets all knotted up when you factor in the (to many people convincing) premise that combo scoring is an inappropriate but necessary evil in the first place.

I don't think it's too difficult to implement, iirc Velocity already created a second set of leaderboards for each song that utilizes raw scoring instead. It currently doesn't detect scores achieved before your current personal best based on combo scoring that might have had a higher raw, but I'm sure that's an easy fix for the future if this ever goes anywhere.

Personally I don't know what the reason is as to why combo scoring has been kept considering the overwhelming demand for raw scoring. I don't think it's too late to implement either. Combo scoring is something that kept FFR unique from SM over the years, but for the wrong reason. If raw scoring being used in both official tournaments and tier points garners a very favorable response from the community (which both have), I see no reason as to why the shift to site-wide raw scoring can't be made. It will increase activity, decrease frustration, and the ranks will actually make sense.

[i love you]

Raw scoring will not be difficult to implant. All FFR needs is extra space.

Also, I can see both arguments about combo and raw scoring however I am personally more to the raw scoring side mainly because majority agrees with it. If majority of this community wants it, i'd say give it to them when possible.

[igotrhythm]

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

Until FFR scores themselves are ranked in accordance with raw scoring (which, spoiler: will most likely never happen), I don't think tournaments should utilize raw scoring.

That just doesn't make sense to me at all.

So Player A missflags EHHS and Player B has a mashed 100+g score. Player B gets a better rank than Player A, which, I'll admit, isn't reflecting a true skill comparison between the two players. Nevertheless, Player B has a better rank. But because this tourney's being run with raw scoring, the 'better rank' on the Official FFR scoreboards means nothing, and Player A advances. Sure, Player A had better PA, but Player B had the better rank in accordance with the current scoring system on FFR.

Change it for everything at once or change nothing at all, just my opinion.

I'm in accordance with this. With arguments on both sides, the only problem with running two officials a year would be having enough files in the queue.

Another problem I see with raw scoring in tournaments is the increased possibility of tiebreakers. Yes, goods and averages are weighted the same in raw and combo (goods are half of perfects, avs are 1/10 of perfects) but boos are weighted far more heavily, which is the main argument I'm seeing for raw scoring aside from one miss messing up teh urn. However, in raw scoring it's easier for a certain number of boos to match up exactly with getting an extra good or average, a situation that's unheard of with combo scores. Adding the combo bonus also acts as a tiebreaker in and of itself...some time ago, two players got 4-0-4-0 on the same song, but one of them had a longer max combo.

From where I'm sitting, if you want to use raw scoring for tournaments, why not use raw scoring for ranks? Because doing so would necessitate wiping out 10+ years of combo score ranks. That's work that the coders don't need. Just like we're keeping the legacy files as objectively flawed as they are, for better or worse I think FFR should stick with combo for official tournaments.

Yes, you can calculate raw score from the step totals.
Yes, raw scoring is considered a truer test of skill.
But overhauling the engine to use raw score for ranks, which would be the endgame for those that are pushing for that, isn't worth the effort.

Even Puppet's point about eschewing combo scoring whenever it's feasible to do so creates a dissonance between normal gameplay and tournament competition.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by igotrhythm

isn't worth the effort.

What, it is worth all the effort. There shouldn't be anything of higher priority on this site.

[Plan_Bsk81127]

Whats the point of having raw scoring on the engine if it isnt going to be used for anything?

[VisD]

Originally Posted by igotrhythm

Even Puppet's point about eschewing combo scoring whenever it's feasible to do so creates a dissonance between normal gameplay and tournament competition.

And this is a bad thing, because...

[igotrhythm]

Originally Posted by VisD

And this is a bad thing, because...

Touché, sir.

My original point about it being a bad thing had to do with how an official tournament should measure players against each other based on the way the game is normally played. Saying "hi, it's time to focus on raw scoring now" is just jarring.

However, I couldn't find a way to eloquently word it, so I'll just go with this: With the current tournament dashboard, if you got a new best rank on a tournament song (which uses combo scoring), it would make sense to set up the dash to recalculate your position on the table accordingly, BY COMBO SCORE. You can even hover your cursor over a cell to see the p-g-a-m-b breakdown of that score.

Could we do it? Yes. Should we do it? No. That's extra work to rip the step counts out of the score, calculate the raw from the counts, and compare those. Work that the servers don't need considering the thousands of games recorded daily.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by igotrhythm

My original point about it being a bad thing had to do with how an official tournament should measure players against each other based on the way the game is normally played. Saying "hi, it's time to focus on raw scoring now" is just jarring.

It would be more like announcing that the competitive tournament is now going to be more based on skill and then everyone would rejoice at this incredibly logical turn of events.

Originally Posted by igotrhythm

Could we do it? Yes. Should we do it? No. That's extra work to rip the step counts out of the score, calculate the raw from the counts, and compare those. Work that the servers don't need considering the thousands of games recorded daily.

Big deal, you right a script to convert scores and let it run. Computers don't care how much work you throw at them.

[Hateandhatred]

Originally Posted by gabrieljd

It's a method of scoring from 2002, no other rhythm game place such emphasis on combo.

Guitar Hero

[DarknessXoXLight]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Big deal, you right a script to convert scores and let it run. Computers don't care how much work you throw at them.

hey man I saw I Robot, one day soon it's just gonna be too much....