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Old 04-20-2012, 04:25 PM   #1
Dynam0
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Default Mirror is Stupid

I stand by this statement...it makes any accomplishment on a simfile done non-mirror underrated imo. You can argue that certain songs bias to some players etc. etc. but basically what you're doing is allowing yourself to post your best score of 2 simfiles while ignoring the worse one. It's cheap and makes your scores look better.

If someone is left-handed and seems most files bias to right handers, then mirror EVERY song you play and I'd call that fair...but simfile artists agree the patterns they use are intended to be played non-mirrored. Bleh, anyways..


I tried mirroring some stuff because I was playing awful and my arms felt like two pieces of lead so I wondered how I would do if I mirrored. I don't recall posting mirrored scores but I have tried a few sims that way just for fun:

First I whored MD to see if I could get sub-40's MA...couldn't do it at least today but a shitload of sections like the 24ths were easier. I always restart if I **** the opening jacks up but didn't in this session.









Wasn't warmed up in the first attempt (MD is not a warm-up song), second attempt I hit the running men way better and improved the ending...still felt horribly slow though


Bombed the streams in the middle that I normally AAA because I was tired lmao
Beginning and jacks part was WAY easier though


MA is good since pretty much all of my bad habits were gone (I can go into detail with screens but who cares)...messed up a lot of trills and the beginning because of slow day etc.


This was funny...I usually do awful in the beginning but I almost FCd it even with a crappy SM day. I AAA the end after the quad hold non-mirror almost every time but this time I was tired and got some cbs and greats =/.

I know it doesn't appear it, but for me these scores (with the exception of MD and fots MA) are awful. I should post some more on a better day but this should give some indication as to why I think it's cheap. I have so many bad habits on these songs, especially fots, on non-mirror but still play them that way because I care about my own records. It would be meaningless to me if I posted a mirrored #est SDG FC since my best non-mirrored is 6 cbs with like 20 greats (iirc), a way worse score.

Sorry for rambling, just my 2 cents =P
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

Midnight Dragon and especially FOTS MA is pretty ridiculous, I bet you can get rid of most cb's with some rehab, it's really nice to see you're picking up sm again

As for me I change between normal and mirrored to avoid habits but songs that has obvious single hand patterns I agree it's not fair, like for example SYSTEM, but otherwise using it to avoid/dodge habits isn't a problem imo.
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

I can see your point about avoiding habits...it should just be noted that mirrored scores do not equal non-mirrored scores, it's comparing apples to oranges. (WRs should be broken up into mirror and non-mirror for instance)
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

files that are more than ~3 years old get mirrored exponentially more often because expressiveness isn't much of an issue (as far as simfile intent), and bad habits (especially for long-time players) very much are. it's sort of just an unspoken allowance -- and on files where mirror more or less objectively makes a file easier beyond habit-reduction/aversion it's usually understood and even remarked upon by the player (ie. SYSTEM, Aci-L edit, etc).

i find absolutely nothing in midnight dragon easier on Mirror for my skillsets (i'm much better at left -> right patterns), outside the beginning jacks which i'm equally terrible at either way. i'm just overlyfamiliar with the nonmirror version which cripples my scores

that said, MD accuracy is thoroughly sick, and caprice is good too. more MA scores plx~
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

I don't really see mirror to be a problem, personally. Maybe I'm just used to it. But maybe it's like how people used to worry that Cmods were unfair/cheating - and we should just all roll with it because it makes things more even and more fun.

I do think that playing to appreciate the files (i.e. for fun) and playing for MA/CBs (i.e. for competitive reasons) are different things, though, and we shouldn't try to push them together too much. I wouldn't worry that awesome art files can be annoying to score on, and I also wouldn't worry that scoring players sometimes do things which destroy the quality of the chart they are playing (e.g. by playing on a high rate).
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Repeating, please no retarded files that aren't even going with the song
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

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Originally Posted by qqwref View Post
I don't really see mirror to be a problem, personally. Maybe I'm just used to it. But maybe it's like how people used to worry that Cmods were unfair/cheating - and we should just all roll with it because it makes things more even and more fun.

I do think that playing to appreciate the files (i.e. for fun) and playing for MA/CBs (i.e. for competitive reasons) are different things, though, and we shouldn't try to push them together too much. I wouldn't worry that awesome art files can be annoying to score on, and I also wouldn't worry that scoring players sometimes do things which destroy the quality of the chart they are playing (e.g. by playing on a high rate).

Well look at it this way: A downhill ski course is designed for the 2030 Winter Olympics and people have developed a way to create an exact mirror image of the course as well. Do athletes have the luxury of racing on the course that best suits their strengths and the best absolute time over the two courses is counted? Or do they race on both and the times are averaged? I think the latter is a more accurate way of gauging the more skilled racer. In other words, if people compare mirrored to non-mirrored scores on an absolute basis, it's a really silly way of telling which score is the better one. However, playing just for fun really isn't a big deal and a relative comparison between mirror and non-mirror seems reasonable.

Last edited by Dynam0; 04-20-2012 at 06:27 PM..
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

If you have bad habits, stop playing old files and enjoy some of the new packs that have come out recently!

I had terrible bad habits on Reach's Reality after whoring it hundreds of times years ago, but I recently managed to get a sick run on it where I totally overcame all my mindblocks after not having really played the file for a few years.
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

slightly offtopic but do you think lefthanded people should always use mirror
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

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Originally Posted by Dynam0 View Post
Well look at it this way: A downhill ski course is designed for the 2030 Winter Olympics and people have developed a way to create an exact mirror image of the course as well. Do athletes have the luxury of racing on the course that best suits their strengths and the best absolute time over the two courses is counted? Or do they race on both and the times are averaged?
Basically this is just the "we shouldn't make things easier" argument. But how, then, do you explain Cmods? I could use the exact same argument to claim that we should have always stuck with xmods, because switching to Cmods removes an element of the game that is supposed to be there, just like how you are supposed to play a specific chart and not its mirror image. And you could say the same thing for 1x, blue notes, and avmiss in FFR.

I personally think more freedom is better. As long as we abide by certain rules (e.g. mines should be on, if you are a spread player then one-handed trills should stay one-handed, don't mess with judge settings, etc) I like the idea of basically letting people play however they want. That means any noteskin, any theme, any speedmod, mirror or not. So that way the best player is the one who simply achieves the best performance, rather than being the person who can best adapt to a specific given setting.
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Repeating, please no retarded files that aren't even going with the song
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:33 PM   #10
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

The thing is, it doesn't specifically make any file easier to everyone. You still have to hit the same amount of notes at the right times. In my opinion speed mods and arrow skins have a larger impact on making a file easier.

If mirror is such a crutch, why isn't playing on anything but 1x speed? I mean, you can train each hand individually and Ideally you should be able to hit the same thing on either hand. I've always used Mirror to get past mental blocks, in very rare cases I would consider it because of the file itself (M.A.M.A.)

As for the skiing analogy, its not like its technically harder to turn left than it is right. And if everyone had the opportunity to run the coarse twice, once mirrored and once not, I actually think it would showcase the strongest athlete more.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

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Originally Posted by qqwref View Post
Basically this is just the "we shouldn't make things easier" argument.
Not at all. I simply think that non-mirror scores and mirror scores shouldn't be interpreted as equivalent difficulty. Everyone will agree that xmod is harder and your argument proves my point since there are separate world records listed for xmod and cmod. I don't think mirror shouldn't be used, that's not it at all. I don't agree with the current paradigm that mirror scores are able to compete with non-mirror scores as if the file is the same. Play Disturbed Mind on mirror and I guarantee you'll agree (if you're right handed) that it is NOT the same difficulty, bad habits and all aside, from non-mirror. Every player has a more dominant hand, even in the slightest which brings me to the next thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leonid View Post
slightly offtopic but do you think lefthanded people should always use mirror
leonid you bring up a good point. The best thing I can relate that to would be skateboarding or other board sports where athletes have a 'regular' or 'goofy' foot stance which would be like having a dominant right hand or left hand respectively. Mirror and non-mirror would be equivalent to doing a trick normal or switch in this case. (Normal being non-mirror for regular stance athletes and mirror for goofy stance while switch would be the harder setting for each stance type). Sorry to the people who don't get the analogy but it's the best I can come up with.

Last edited by Dynam0; 04-20-2012 at 11:13 PM..
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:24 PM   #12
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

That was always my thinking towards arrow smashing. Everything in the world is right hand biased, so I mirror everything I play. I always thought it'd be the same as you guys explained. +1
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Old 04-21-2012, 12:52 AM   #13
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Default Re: Mirror is Stupid

mirror does improve lots of songs on sm (!! secret's out fuc)

also even after years of not playing ur still so gud ;__; im so happi for u
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