Communism is bad?

[Without A Contraceptive]

Originally Posted by devonin

1984 has absolutely nothing to do with communism.

ohhhh man the fact that this has to be said voids all conjecture in this thread

in short the whole 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need' stuff is pretty much evil. holler at your randoid.

[devonin]

in short the whole 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need' stuff is pretty much evil.

Source?

[fido123]

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive

in short the whole 'from each according to his ability to each according to his need' stuff is pretty much evil. holler at your randoid.

This view is obviously derived from Cold War propaganda. If you're not going to say why it's "evil" expect us to make these assumptions. Honestly communism is pretty much the opposite of "evil" IMO as it's putting in all you can and people take out what they need to eliminate poverty and create a standard living of life everybody would have. Capitalism is trying to work your way up the salary ladder any way you can no matter how many people to step on along the way. I'm personally for capitalism because I don't like the idea of lazy people who'll just abuse the system benefiting from my work, and I don't like the idea of the government regulating everything.

[zadkiel91]

Like some said in here, the idea is not bad but once exercised is just completely terrible. If we lived in a communist society, there wouldn't be any big buildings for saying something, because everything would be controlled by the government, private enterprises wouldn't exist.

[devonin]

Everything would be controlled by the people determined to be best suited to controlling them. That's not at all the same thing. Also "big building for saying something" what does that even mean?

[Without A Contraceptive]

Originally Posted by fido123

This view is obviously derived from Cold War propaganda. If you're not going to say why it's "evil" expect us to make these assumptions. Honestly communism is pretty much the opposite of "evil" IMO as it's putting in all you can and people take out what they need to eliminate poverty and create a standard living of life everybody would have. Capitalism is trying to work your way up the salary ladder any way you can no matter how many people to step on along the way. I'm personally for capitalism because I don't like the idea of lazy people who'll just abuse the system benefiting from my work, and I don't like the idea of the government regulating everything.

it's actually derived from atlas shrugged if you must know.

this is the type of stuff i hate discussing online but tmrw i'll try to type up a big comprehensive post blah blah

basically it is an "evil" principle in that stripping the financial benefits of production from the producers and distributing it to all is a disgrace to them and whatever they produce. john galt walking out of the factory concept.

your perception of capitalism in action is rather elementary. contemporary american capitalism seems polarized - The Rich Step on People Everyone thats Broke Is LAzy - as a (i'd assume, this is all just wild shots in the dark) result of aspects of our society such as the crazy distribution of wealth. working your way up the salary ladder takes a back seat to the real benefits of capitalism - recognition for your innovation, work, production, genius, intelligence, etc.. with you on the dont like the government regulating everything though.

if money is the root of all evil - ask yo self what is the root of all money

[devonin]

You realize that Atlas Shrugged is also basically propaganda? Objectivism as a philosophy is hardly a globally accepted position any more than Communism is.

I'll let you in on a secret: The factory that Rand described in Atlas Shrugged, the one that functioned "According to Pure Ideal Communism" was pretty much a farce through and through. It didn't come CLOSE to actually representing a) what communism even -is- or b) the way communism would actually function when functioning properly.

It takes an incredibly simplistic understanding of the maxim "From each according to their abilities, To each according to their needs" and then fills the factory with people who are not actually taking part in the system, but instead exactly like capitalists, doing whatever they percieve gives them the most individual personal benefit from the system.

If you have "Communism" and then people "in" the communist state that aren't actually acting legitimately according to the tenets of Communism, you don't actually have communism.

[fido123]

I won't bother going over things devoin already said:

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive

basically it is an "evil" principle in that stripping the financial benefits of production from the producers and distributing it to all is a disgrace to them and whatever they produce. john galt walking out of the factory concept.

So you're basically saying "it's not capitalism so it's evil"? I'm a capitalist, I should earn what I put in but distributing wealth equally regardless of work put in isn't quite "evil". I disagree with it but it's a way of getting rid of poverty by balancing the wealth. It's more of a humanitarian approach to things, so that's why I say it's anything but evil.

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive

your perception of capitalism in action is rather elementary. contemporary american capitalism seems polarized - The Rich Step on People Everyone thats Broke Is LAzy - as a (i'd assume, this is all just wild shots in the dark) result of aspects of our society such as the crazy distribution of wealth.

I'm not saying all people who are broke are lazy at all, but I think people who live off welfare are who don't have a legitimate reason. Everybody I know on welfare is quite capable of getting a job but when they found a job at a grocery store or something they just complain about how the manager was a bitch or something stupid and they had to quit, which I guess sometimes would be valid but I'm pretty sure it's just an excuse for not working especially since it's from every one of them. I can find a job pretty easily even with a speech impediment which limits me from working a lot of jobs where I have to deal with people, yet these people CLAIM to find it so hard to get a job without one yet they've hardly gone out and looked. This is why I say from personal experiences MOST people who LIVE (not just use for a while, while times are tough for it's intended purpose) off welfare are lazy, and I don't want to support these people. I'd rather throw them on the streets.

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive

working your way up the salary ladder takes a back seat to the real benefits of capitalism - recognition for your innovation, work, production, genius, intelligence, etc.. with you on the dont like the government regulating everything though.

100% agree. With people competing to develop new technology it only pushes are society to do greater things.

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive

if money is the root of all evil - ask yo self what is the root of all money

u high? Seriously though money isn't the root of all evil, the want for power (money is power but there are other kinds too) and ignorance (religious wars) are IMO and I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying lol.

[~kitty~]

I'm pretty sure most people who are strongly against Communism, even when reasoned with, watch Fox News (or an equivalent) as their news source. My parents watch Fox News and have a closed-minded view of Communism.

[fido123]

Originally Posted by ~kitty~

I'm pretty sure most people who are strongly against Communism, even when reasoned with, watch Fox News (or an equivalent) as their news source. My parents watch Fox News and have a closed-minded view of Communism.

It's pretty much any news source. If you were around in the 60's, 70's, and 80's or obtained your views from anybody who was around then, chances are you're going to think communism this evil system only run under totalitarian regimes. The communist countries have to take some of the blame because the major ones ones at least that were around during that period failed miserable. They mismanaged food production and as a result thousands, maybe even a couple million starved in China and Russia. The government/media however took facts like these and the fact their governments were oppressive and shitty, and told everybody that this is what communism is like (although a lot of stuff including the starvation of millions didn't quite get out since there was the Iron Curtain. Obviously all of this has nothing to do with communism, rather than countries that happens to be communist being run like absolute shit. Communism could probably be done right, although I wouldn't want it, and communists definitely aren't "evil", that's just propaganda since communism was the enemy of the U.S. Also my dad is Canadian and we don't have Fox News up here and he thinks communism is evil.

[~kitty~]

Originally Posted by fido123

It's pretty much any news source. If you were around in the 60's, 70's, and 80's or obtained your views from anybody who was around then, chances are you're going to think communism this evil system only run under totalitarian regimes. The communist countries have to take some of the blame because the major ones ones at least that were around during that period failed miserable. They mismanaged food production and as a result thousands, maybe even a couple million starved in China and Russia. The government/media however took facts like these and the fact their governments were oppressive and shitty, and told everybody that this is what communism is like (although a lot of stuff including the starvation of millions didn't quite get out since there was the Iron Curtain. Obviously all of this has nothing to do with communism, rather than countries that happens to be communist being run like absolute shit. Communism could probably be done right, although I wouldn't want it, and communists definitely aren't "evil", that's just propaganda since communism was the enemy of the U.S. Also my dad is Canadian and we don't have Fox News up here and he thinks communism is evil.

This wasn't my point, really. My claim was that news sources such as Fox News (and others) would try to make you believe that Communism is evil, regardless of what evidence you have to prove it may not be. The reasoning behind that is the extremist ways of news sources such as Fox News that like to present obviously false news that not only is false but may be border line racist as well.

EDIT: That is for example. I'm not making any definitive statements, I'm just pointing out a trend.

[RB_IcePh0enix]

"Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat" -Friedrich Engels

If I were you, I wouldn't take the opinions of FFR posters to figure out your views on communism. Instead, I would read about communism from its original sources and decide for yourself. The theories of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels are pretty much the foundation of communism. Engels' Communism FAQ is a great place to start, then I would read the Communist Manifesto.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...1/prin-com.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...ist-manifesto/
(you can also get the Communist Manifesto at most libraries or bookstores)

I don't think you could really say that Marx or Engels were biased in their view of communism, considering they were the original creators of the theory of communism. I hope this helps.

[Cherubi]

Any sort of government where a group of people have stupid amounts of power and influence will never work. It is just human nature. If the idea of communism adopted a more democratic system to elect those in power, maybe it would work a little better. No matter what, there will always be a flaw and a need for more power.

[devonin]

Communism is the exact opposite of a system where a group of people have stupid amounts of power and influence.

[Cherubi]

Name me one situation where a communist country wasn't run by an elite of people, thus creating an incredible gap between rich and poor (which is defeating the exact purpose of "communism")

[devonin]

Name me one communist country. (Tip: There are none)

Let me expand in advance before you come back with a list of the usual suspects: Simply stating that you are a communist country does not actually make you a communist country. China is not a communist country, North Korea is not a communist country, the USSR was not a communist country. The closest we've come to it is Cuba, and even that is not actually a communist country.

[Cherubi]

So the debate is really how "communist" a country actually was or is. It's but an ideology that has never been legitimately implemented, am I right?

[devonin]

The discussion has changed and evolved a few times over the thread. What communism -is- and what has been done in places claiming to be communist are totally seperate questions. My objections to the OP and similar people suggesting that communism is bad on the grounds of the actions of states like China is to say "That isn't communism" but there are other objections you could lodge about it as an ideology.

[Cherubi]

No country has ever successfully implemented an actual communist system, usually always leading to some of the worst human conditions on earth or an oligarchic government where the people have no legitimate power.

I'd debate whether communism would actually succeed or not if it were to actually happen somewhere (the way communism was meant to be on paper that is).

[devonin]

It did work, many times, on appropriately small scales all throughout the Hippie movement of the 1960s.