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Old 06-7-2011, 07:18 PM   #1
~kitty~
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Default Children's Rights?

I know I'm not a child anymore, but I am also not the youngest in my family.

Article 14 (Freedom of thought, conscience and religion): Children have the right to think and believe what they want and to practise their religion, as long as they are not stopping other people from enjoying their rights. (http://www.unicef.org/crc/files/Rights_overview.pdf)

According to this article, wouldn't it mean that telling a child they have to attend church, religious gatherings, or anything relating the religious practices is illegal? I want to know some opinions on the extent to which a parent can make a child do and think what they want. When does it stop another person from enjoying their rights?
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Old 06-8-2011, 01:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

sorry mayne/anyone that believes american law should enable kids (anyone who isn't completely financially independent regardless of age) to disobey their parents is just plain wrong

parents have the right to force a kid to go to church, they can force their beliefs on their children, and make them do anything. if you aren't financially independent you do not have any right to disobey your parents. in fact, id go as far as to say that you do not have any rights at all
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Old 06-8-2011, 01:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive View Post
sorry mayne/anyone that believes american law should enable kids (anyone who isn't completely financially independent regardless of age) to disobey their parents is just plain wrong

parents have the right to force a kid to go to church, they can force their beliefs on their children, and make them do anything. if you aren't financially independent you do not have any right to disobey your parents. in fact, id go as far as to say that you do not have any rights at all
Are you saying that they have no right to complain if someone is sexually/emotionally/physically abusing them? Are you saying that the caregiver has every right to strike a child when it is more convenient for them, because they can't handle one more thing?

You have a right to believe what you want, but in my books, (and alot of others, too) believe that's extremely wrong.

I believe that you shouldn't force your religion on others, because that's not really being good to your religion, no? Take the Christians (Or the Catholics? I can't remember who was trying to convert), they tried to convert the Pagans, and they did succeed, but now they're forming little circles, and they feel just a little resentful. :\

Just sayin', everyone-- even children-- has a right to their beliefs about god. Whether they believe he even exists, or if there is more than one, or what ever.
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Old 06-8-2011, 01:34 AM   #4
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

Unfortunately, I think WAC is right. It seems you only took the first line of the article and drew a premature conclusion.

Quote:
The Convention respects the rights and duties of parents in providing religious and moral guidance to their children. Religious groups around the world have expressed support for the Convention, which indicates that it in no way prevents parents from bringing their children up within a religious tradition.
Here it looks like it says that parents can still do whatever the crap they want, within the law (no abuse, must provide food and shelter, etc.).

Quote:
At the same time, the Convention recognizes that as children mature and are able to form their own views, some may question certain religious practices or cultural traditions. The Convention supports children's right to examine their beliefs, but it also states that their right to express their beliefs implies respect for the rights and freedoms of others.
As children mature and can form their own views, they are allowed to question religious practices and cultural traditions [but parents are still allowed to make them participate]. The only thing that appears to be prohibited is punishing children who question or shy away from the religion or other cultural practices in which they were brought up, as well as punishing them for expressing their new views. That's what I got from this.
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Old 06-8-2011, 06:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

In some contexts church and religion are directly abusive and children shouldn't be exposed to them. Make the category as broad as "religious practices" frankly ought to yield all sorts of illegalities. Stuff like this shouldn't just be illegal, the perpetrators should be lined up against a wall.
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Old 06-9-2011, 07:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

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Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
The moment I saw "God didn't intend this" proved my thoughts correct - Just because someone has a different sexuality makes certain people think they are more evil than Hitler ever was.

By the way, defenders of the bible, you should know that your bible talks about owning and beating slaves.

Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Also, the beating...

Quote:
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
And don't say "Oh, well that was in the old book. It doesn't say that in the new book," because they just calls slaves "servants" in the newer books....

But that was just a rant. WAC, what you said basically told me that you think children are slaves and should be treated as such.
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Old 06-9-2011, 09:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

All parents pass on their values to their children. If you had information that you honestly belived could save your childs life would you tell them or let them find that information out by themselves when it could be too late.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

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Originally Posted by ChesterDalton View Post
All parents pass on their values to their children. If you had information that you honestly belived could save your childs life would you tell them or let them find that information out by themselves when it could be too late.
There are some things that parents should tell children, while there are some things that parents should just keep quiet about.

Just because a parent can pass their values to their children, doesn't mean they should.
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

No, the article only says that children are allowed to express to their parents their reasons for not wanting to go to church, and that the parents must listen, not say that their parents cannot force them to go.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MopeyJoe View Post
But that was just a rant. WAC, what you said basically told me that you think children are slaves and should be treated as such.
ya because that is basically what you and all other "children" are.

i've been lucky enough to have rational parents who are open-minded and allow me (and encourage me) to develop my own thoughts, opinions, etc.. however, if you are unfortunate enough to have parents who force you to attend church and other things like that, too bad. you don't really have a choice in the matter.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

I've had this discussion with someone before and I believe that forcing religion upon children impedes on their freedom of religion. You can believe whatever you want, but forcing it upon your kids should be illegal.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive View Post
ya because that is basically what you and all other "children" are.

i've been lucky enough to have rational parents who are open-minded and allow me (and encourage me) to develop my own thoughts, opinions, etc.. however, if you are unfortunate enough to have parents who force you to attend church and other things like that, too bad. you don't really have a choice in the matter.
Oh ok, so when I have children and they decide not to do something I told them to do, I will take a metal rod and beat them with it until they agree to do it.

No, you don't do that. That's what you do to slaves, I've never seen a 7 year-old be told to make dinner for their parents or clean the dishes afterward or else they will get beat.
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Old 06-10-2011, 07:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavernio View Post
No, the article only says that children are allowed to express to their parents their reasons for not wanting to go to church, and that the parents must listen, not say that their parents cannot force them to go.
" Moreover, the Convention recognizes that the level of a child’s
participation in decisions must be appropriate to the child's level of maturity. Children's ability to form and
express their opinions develops with age and most adults will naturally give the views of teenagers
greater weight than those of a preschooler, whether in family, legal or administrative decision"
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Old 06-12-2011, 08:55 AM   #14
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

Right kitty.

"Just because a parent can pass their values to their children, doesn't mean they should."

A parent will pass their values to their child whether they want to or not, just as society will. That's just how things work. Regardless though, if your values are actually values, you will want your child to have them as well, and unless your values go against societal values, then there's no reason to not teach your kid your own values.

Last edited by Cavernio; 06-12-2011 at 09:01 AM..
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Old 06-12-2011, 09:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive View Post
where did i ever say anything about parents beating their kids mopey?
You didn't say parents beat their children but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive View Post
in fact, id go as far as to say that you do not have any rights at all
You are basically saying, parents have the right to beat their children because children have no rights, and parents just choose not to beat their kids.

Oh yes, and I do listen to my mom all the time. She never forces her religion on me (well, she does partially, but I don't like Christianity so I don't listen to her then), and I just do what she wants me to do around the house, and my life is just fine.

And WAC, what if a parent told their kid to go do drugs, mug people, and rape women? Would you think it would be bad if a child said no to their parents then?
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:44 AM   #16
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

This is more related to the religion part of this conversation than the children part.
I was raised by catholic parents, who tried to force it on me as much as they could.
I also later chose to go to a catholic high-school because they actually had half-decent computer science classes. The religion class curriculum was still decided by nuns. They decided to change our 11th grade class, which was supposed to be our world religions class that year into some more catholic BS. Our 12th teacher thought that was ridiculous and she found a way to teach us world religions the next year while still following the curriculum, and I'm really glad. I was pretty outraged when I found out I'd have this crap forced on me because of my choice of having a better education.
We also had school masses, and they forced students to go. If you refused you'd be sent to the principal's office...
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:14 AM   #17
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

i saw a video made by richard dawkins on this issue, as soon as i find it again ill link it.

indoctrination is deplorable.
some restrictions should be made to prevent parents from forcing children to participate in religious activities.
it should be considered a form of child abuse.
i imagine threatening a child with hell causes psychological damage.

forcing religion on children is almost as bad as forcing sex upon them.
in both cases the child does not have the capacity to understand what they are being forced to do.

everyone is born atheist.

EDIT: links
4 parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_fLPYSW1hg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3lwa8faV9s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhbSVZ-XK9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KNk6wNQjSU
3 parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdZ_iA8fP_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC1YFP19rCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOBTtdcIITU

Last edited by perkeyone; 06-13-2011 at 02:34 AM..
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:21 AM   #18
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

"everyone is born atheist."

We're also born not knowing up from down, left from right, without being able to see, not being able to feed ourselves, etc.

Semantic arguing aside though, I disagree with the idea. I could totally see a child or adult coming up with the idea of God and rituals of their own accord. Where did the idea of religion come from in the first place?
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:05 AM   #19
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

the difference between the fact that children cant feed themselves and cant understand religion is that one of those things is immediately important to the child's survival.

a parent does not need to foist religion on a child during their impressionable youth... the same that they are taught to believe in the easter bunny and santa, only the idea or religion is never redacted.

teaching the difference between left and right is put off until the child is capable of understanding, yet religion is not.
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: Children's Rights?

A good rule from parents that -will- be enforced:

If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
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