Official Tier Point System Thread

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Plan_Bsk81127

I know what its like to be a low level player, obviously I have been there and I know from being there that I didnt worry about how well others did and what they had but instead worry more about improving myself. The lower level players have come to the point where like if we went back to when Otaku Oni token was released we would have a whole bitchfit thread on how its unfair that they have a token only top players can get. Nobody around here can be pleased anymore and its tweaking me to see that. =\

The difference from the [Oni] issue is that there's actually things in this aspect of the game (skill tokens/achievement tokens) that are actually attainable by those who are just starting or by those who are somewhat seasoned. Tiers on the other hand, are considerably more difficult. I understand that it was a top-player-exclusive thing, but there really shouldn't be something that completely shoves away newer players. Everything should be balanced: for every hard chart, there's easier one; for every difficult token, there's an easier one; for every difficult tier achievement, there's...

...there's nothing.

And my post that you quoted was referring to kmay, not you.

[KotHN]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

words

okay, I guess I see how you implied that. I didn't read all his posts carefully enough.

[One Winged Angel]

Originally Posted by aperson

Our goal here is simplicity and the ability to extend the range of players which can start earning skill points.

well that puts an end to four or five people's arguments

[Wineandbread]

Maybe you should code tier points into the engine then to make people aware of their existence
Although it'd only show for certain songs which would be kinda weird


Also the ****ing drama on here is ludicrous seriously, be mature please.

If there are a lot of people discontent with the system, then perhaps we need more people working on tier points. Set up a panel, like file judging, for tier points for constant readjustment and/or song consideration or some ****. I feel like jimerax and ilu are both being wrongfully blamed by certain people on this thread.

$0.02

[rushyrulz]

I liked iironiic's idea foremost, but if the plan is just to add some easier songs to the TP list, I would suggest

8s:
Horizon Remix
Brooks Was Here [Heavy]
Mercury Lamp
Maple Leaf Rag

9s:
Etude to a Dragon
Ivaltek
{Rose}
I am Maid

10s:
Infiltration
Lawn Wake IV
The Games We Played Part 1
Monstrous Turtles!

Just to name a few. (Didn't check the current TP list, sorry if any of those 10s are already on there)

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by aperson

How about instead of yelling at each other we take this in a productive direction.

Currently there are 120 songs that have Tier Points. The lowest value awarded for any one of them is 4 points. I think we have room to add more songs onto the lower difficulties that are worth 3, 2, or just 1 point. I think it would be reasonable if a handful of 10s were given 3 point scales for tier points, and some 8s and 9s were given 2 or 1 points.

If you agree with this, what are some 8s / 9s / 10s you would like to see included, what are the point requirements for them, and why?

If you disagree with this, what do you think we would do instead? Our goal here is simplicity and the ability to extend the range of players which can start earning skill points.

This got pushed back a page wanted to bump it. I don't have an exact in mind atm but I def would like to see tiers be a little more obtainable then they are now. I mean for me it seems like impossible to achive any now.

[kmay]

8's should not be on the list. 9's can get on the list though, maybe songs like ivaltek and torinouta... borderline 10's.


someone tell me what would the point of tier points be if it included everyone difficulty of song. it would just be a glorifed level rank. ._.

[bmah]

Originally Posted by aperson

If you agree with this, what are some 8s / 9s / 10s you would like to see included, what are the point requirements for them, and why?

I know that certain songs give people trouble because of some sort of gimmick, pattern, or concept. An example of an 8 is MAX Forever, which is simply due to two things: song length and patterns near the END of the song (one-handed trills). An example of a 9 is Fei Longer; the jacks are the main feature which makes this a frequently-played song to score on.

I really don't have any sort of rationale for points right now, so I'm unsure as to whether Fei Longer for instance deserves 2 vs 3 tier points at max.

@anyone: just flip through the scores and amateur scores threads and see what songs are "hot" to play and score on. You'll get a general idea of the songs that give people trouble. I'd say it also helps to look at the R1 difficulty thread and look at those songs that are borderline between two difficulties - they're often hotly debated.

[TC_Halogen]

@ kmay

It's not including every difficulty, it's including the top 4 (5 with 13s) difficulties, and only a select few. It makes the tier list more sizable and more easily achievable.

@ bmah

Fei Longer, Starlight, Legendary Etude, The Games We Played Part 5 - all songs that are borderline and should be contested, haha

[bmah]

Otter's Dance, etc.

[rushyrulz]

Ska Cha Cha x.x

AAAd that mother****er on mirror earlier today :/
9 my ass..

[Plan_Bsk81127]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

I'm not saying be mushy, but if people feel like they are being attacked it's generally gonna start an argument. I usually try my best to get my point across but not "offend" either. It doesn't always work but hey we can only try our best.

The scores thread thing to me isn't really a big issue I mean so what if there's two threads now it's not hurting anything. And there were people trying to post their scores in the score thread but it was like everytime one of us lower people posted something someone was posting some OMG score. So it was kinda like a feeling of not belonging because there were always such amazing scores being posted that it felt like no one was going to notice these lower scores anyways. So people stopped posting there. Now the newer people have their thread where they're doing their thing and then there's still the FFR scores thread where whoever can post that feels like it.

And this is where(without making it sound mean) I feel people need to stop throwing themselves into that mindset because it is sort of coming off as you are blaming the top players for posting scores good for them. Nobody is ever going to get good by doubting themselves by looking at the top playing and feeling like they arent good enough. All those guys were at their level at one point and they worked to get to where they are now, these people need to do the same and not compare themselves to those upper players.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

The difference from the [Oni] issue is that there's actually things in this aspect of the game (skill tokens/achievement tokens) that are actually attainable by those who are just starting or by those who are somewhat seasoned. Tiers on the other hand, are considerably more difficult. I understand that it was a top-player-exclusive thing, but there really shouldn't be something that completely shoves away newer players. Everything should be balanced: for every hard chart, there's easier one; for every difficult token, there's an easier one; for every difficult tier achievement, there's...

...there's nothing.

And my post that you quoted was referring to kmay, not you.

The thing I see is that the tier points have been fine all these years being for the top players like intended and nobody complained about them being unfair to lower level players, just curious like all of a sudden now its all against against lower players when it has been fine all this time. FFR really need one HUGE makeover. We are a community based site now, lets make a hardcore change to things. FFR is based off of DDR, so do things like the multiple difficulties, organize the tokens into levels that go by difficulty(lv 1 tokens = easy, etc), and so on and so on. I might as well agree now that this change for lower tiers being added since my point in why not is obviously going nowhere. =\

[kmay]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

@ kmay

It's not including every difficulty, it's including the top 4 (5 with 13s) difficulties, and only a select few. It makes the tier list more sizable and more easily achievable.

@ bmah

Fei Longer, Starlight, Legendary Etude, The Games We Played Part 5 - all songs that are borderline and should be contested, haha

so adding some 9's to the list will make everyone happy? i can deal with that, just not too many, they can just act as a little buffer or transition i guess...


but was did we really need 3 pages to say that? "add some 9's to the TP list" is a lof different than making it for low level players because i know when i first started brightone was the hardest song i could combo, with severe mashing. so its not really helping low level players at all. first off they will be like 2/2 or 3/3 and the req's will be AAA or under 5 goods...

[Fantasticone]

Would half a point requirements for some easy songs be doable? Like .5 points for a FC on Seven or something?

[One Winged Angel]

to add to potential 9's: ivaltek, 101 kittens, forsaken neon, TBotM

[MrMagic5239]

Ivaltek should be a 10 >=|

[rushyrulz]

lol regardless, looks like it's going on either way

[Plan_Bsk81127]

Might as well mention some 9's that could be part of this:

Ivaltek
Melted Marble
Toph's Op
Brainwave
Ska cha cha
Shining Sky
Glove Stage
Otters Dance
Tell me a Story

[TC_Halogen]

Now that we're actually past the hurricane of flaming and attacking one another, let's actually target the tier issue.

We have some songs listed for the topic, it hasn't been decided how low the tiers are going to go; mostly everyone is saying 9s, I said 8s but it might not be taken down too low.

The best way I see to do this: assign a point value to each difficulty that is static throughout the same level, with the exception of those files that are on the border of each level having a +/- 1 tolerance (in the direction they are being contested in).

If a song is being contested for a lower tier value, the requirements should be loosened up a bit because they are a difficulty level that is rated in game one level higher than the rest of the songs within this value.

If a song is being contested for a higher tier value, the requirements should be tightened up a bit because they are a difficulty level that is rated in game one level lower than the rest of the songs within this value.

Once this is said and done, you can use overall level stat statistics (AAAs/FCs) to base off the lower songs (8s/9s), and then start using the score board for those that actually have a top 200 that varies. If a scoreboard indicates slightly lower scores than another song in the same level, the requirements should be slightly looser than one that has a fairly tight and solid board.

EDIT: If there are any songs within the 7/8 border, the requirement can be included in the 8 group but should be considerably tightened.

[bmah]

Originally Posted by kmay

but was did we really need 3 pages to say that? "add some 9's to the TP list" is a lof different than making it for low level players because i know when i first started brightone was the hardest song i could combo, with severe mashing. so its not really helping low level players at all. first off they will be like 2/2 or 3/3 and the req's will be AAA or under 5 goods...

lol looks like there's still some confusion as to what we're aiming for

I think I'll add to my older post regarding goals.

We also have to define tier point accessibility because there's going to be arguments about what it means to be a "top player" vs a "lower-level" player.

I think the approach for defining the boundaries of accessibility is to make a list of "troublesome" songs from difficulty 8 and up. You can't avoid the subjectivity in this part, so you'll have to make do. The second thing is to divide each song into whatever tp requirements are necessary. If you want the ultimate measure, you'd have to do site statistics on each song, but that's really complicated. So for simplification, I'll just assume that players should approach the TP list when they can cleanly PA a song (not necessarily SDG, but maybe several double-digit goods with few or no avgs). It already HAS been said or implied that the TP list is for those who play the game with a remote degree of seriousness - that's my rationale to the definition of a low-level TIER POINT PLAYER.

i.e. We're making the game more accessible, but there are limits to playing the "tier point" game. We could extend it further and further, but it'll get huge and messy. And since tier points ARE for people who actually gives a rat's ass about FFR, you can certainly define a lower-end boundary. kmay's concerns in the quote basically demonstrate that there has to be limits to this system: yes, we recognize you want to play the game seriously if you mash Brightone but unfortunately there has to be a cutoff line. The change to this system is to satisfy a greater group of players, but the question is to what extent should the system apply to. My answer to that is that the bare minimum might be around 20 goods for the lowest-level song with an average amount of notes (you'll have to define these yourself guys), and maybe that might be slightly too generous. Yeah, I made that up just now, but at least you have to draw the line somewhere, right?

p.s. on that half tier point idea, I think that'll lead to the messy side of things