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Old 10-25-2010, 12:04 PM   #141
MrRubix
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

Perhaps we're in general agreement and mincing semantics/ideas or something. Eliminating racism isn't solvable by just targeting poor people and giving everyone equal access. There are fundamental issues that are largely inherent on a racial basis that cannot be merely handwaved away.
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:14 PM   #142
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

"I.e. You help upper class blacks while hindering lower class whites."

In some cases, yes, but I'm guessing the more likely scenarios are that you help lower class blacks compared to upper class whites, which is its whole purpose I'm guessing. If, in general, you aren't helping impoverished people more than the unimpoverished, then the plan must be failing terribly. However, I'm also guessing that if we could figure out to some degree of certainty if its working as planned, that we have the resources to actually make it work so that it would be targeting the more general impoverished community.

Regarding aboriginal rights and issues, there's a whole can of worms in there that are only loosely connected to the topic of this thread, and I will say that, unpopular and as seemingly unlike me to hold such a position, aboriginals in canada at least, should be fully canadian. The past is the past. (Although the canadian government won't allow for a single unifying government or voice from all the aboriginals, or so I've heard.)

However, I see what Fido said in his last post is the basic stance I hear all the time. 'You have the opportunity to change, if you want to succeed, you can in our world, so if you aren't succeeding, clearly its all your own fault.' And all the counter arguments against such thought is that the world isn't fair, some people simply by the fact that they were born into poverty, have a much harder and further struggle than people who aren't, and it is only fair to try and equalize the playing field whenever possible. To equalize the playing field by using race as a measure because it correlates with poverty has its problems, but I think it is the better choice than to ignore the inequalities. And I suppose its a lot easier to check off a box stating your race than it is to delve into who really is the most disadvantaged.
[I'm not sure why you assume aboriginals with degrees don't live on reserves though, or they've somehow severed their ties to their original communities and their family. My use of the word 'aboriginal' is specifically for a person who lives in canada but aren't actually canadian because they live on a reserve. They most certainly do not live like aboriginals did 200 years ago, nor do I think most of them want to. Currently, many reserves have incredibly high suicide rates for teenagers, and are full of substance abuse ranging from cocaine to gasoline and other run-of-the-mill items that you can get high off of while you're still a kid. They're canada's slums, and have been since the 1940's when my parents were kids, and they're not getting any better.]

Ideally, I will agree that we should give people jobs and things on the basis of how good that person will do at the job. But that doesn't happen on a large scale unless there's large-scale intervention to make it happen that way, and it also ignores the fact that what society says is good or not is not necessarily good. There are countless reasons why qualified people aren't hired; they were trained outside the country, they have a criminal record, they've done drugs, they aren't a family member, they have a disability that would require them to miss more than the average amount of work, they weren't as physically attractive as the person who interviewed before them. And all these are irrelevant of their race, and some of these reasons are government supported.

I guess most of my post is not really on-topic, oh well.
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:17 PM   #143
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

"I still honestly don't see any reason why people should target people by race instead of the factors that are actively putting them at a disadvantage like you listed off."

Yeah yeah, I said this in my huge block of text already, but to address it specifically, its easy to put a check-box on a form that says caucasian, black, hispanic, other. Its hard and time consuming to ask a barrage of questions to figure out who is most in need of the job.
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Old 10-25-2010, 07:29 PM   #144
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

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I am saying that I agree with your views from a moralistic standpoint (and with Reach in terms of statistics). But you guys have to understand that the problem lies in the execution and practice. You guys are all approaching the subject from a noble standpoint, but it's a standpoint that a lot of people push forth as an "obviously correct" solution. It may be true in theory, but it just isn't that simple. Much of it, as I've stated throughout this thread, is an issue because there are certain truths behind racial differences that make it extremely difficult to reconcile the problems correctly.
I do understand the problem lies in execution and practice. My point is more or less that we should not introduce systems such as AA which are, on basic theoretical grounds, a complete failure, especially when they run the risk of creating additional complications (I suggested some earlier).


I'm not claiming to have any answers to this problem. If it was easy to solve we would have solved it already. I'm merely claiming the current solution is blatantly incorrect.


I haven't read the whole thread, only parts of it, but nobody has even brought up one of the cruxes of this problem that has historically stirred more debate than anything else: The racial achievement gap appears not only in every standardized educational assessment but also equally in magnitude in every assessment of aptitude, e.g. IQ. In addition to this, every historical attempt to ameliorate these gaps has failed. Even drastic measures such as adoption into wealthy families has no effect on these gaps.

Nobody knows why they exist, but they surely tie into this issue critically and stir up a hell of a lot of debate.
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Old 10-25-2010, 07:38 PM   #145
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

Much of this thread is trollbait so don't get too much into the rest of the thread, haha.

Regarding your last point though, it's basically been implicit in much of the argument put forth so far, unless you're referring to something else that I am misunderstanding? The trends have always been pretty clear in terms of the achievement gaps, and the explanations behind them have (in my opinion) been pretty straightforward.
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Old 10-25-2010, 07:47 PM   #146
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

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Much of this thread is trollbait so don't get too much into the rest of the thread, haha.

Regarding your last point though, it's basically been implicit in much of the argument put forth so far, unless you're referring to something else that I am misunderstanding? The trends have always been pretty clear in terms of the achievement gaps, and the explanations behind them have (in my opinion) been pretty straightforward.
Well, it is implicit, but the aptitude gap brings up an issue that hasn't been discussed, unless i haven't read enough of the thread. It probably shouldn't be discussed by the majority of people here though, since it's a sensitive issue.

But, there are well documented hereditary links to aptitudes such as IQ.

Which begs to question whether there are genetic differences between racial groups that could be exacerbating current trends.

If this is the case it would be impossible to ever fix the achievement gap.

(To prevent the potential for any slandering, I am not espousing the belief that racial differences are entirely causally the result of genetic differences. To be clear, there is actually no evidence that this would be the case.)
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Old 10-25-2010, 08:36 PM   #147
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

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Originally Posted by Cavernio View Post
However, I see what Fido said in his last post is the basic stance I hear all the time. 'You have the opportunity to change, if you want to succeed, you can in our world, so if you aren't succeeding, clearly its all your own fault.' And all the counter arguments against such thought is that the world isn't fair, some people simply by the fact that they were born into poverty, have a much harder and further struggle than people who aren't, and it is only fair to try and equalize the playing field whenever possible.
Sorry I thought I was clear on this. I agree that people born into an impoverished life have it harder, but I don't think we should simply hand things over to them more easily. At most I'd only like to see people taking into consideration how much harder it was for them to get what qualifications they have, and see that as initiative but that's it. It's simply judging the merits of a person and how well you think they will preform as an employee. I agree with everything else you said except why not just look at their annual income bracket instead of race? Just as easy.
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Old 10-25-2010, 09:11 PM   #148
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

Okay, but therein lies the issue.

So we can acknowledge that someone from a poorer background has it harder. What then? We can judge someone's merits and see that it was harder for them to achieve a certain level of qualification, but again, what then? At the end of the day we still need to DO something with these observations.
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Old 10-25-2010, 09:18 PM   #149
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

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Well, it is implicit, but the aptitude gap brings up an issue that hasn't been discussed, unless i haven't read enough of the thread. It probably shouldn't be discussed by the majority of people here though, since it's a sensitive issue.

But, there are well documented hereditary links to aptitudes such as IQ.

Which begs to question whether there are genetic differences between racial groups that could be exacerbating current trends.

If this is the case it would be impossible to ever fix the achievement gap.

(To prevent the potential for any slandering, I am not espousing the belief that racial differences are entirely causally the result of genetic differences. To be clear, there is actually no evidence that this would be the case.)
How were these gaps evaluated? I can see the explanation as being easy to see if, say, we are looking at children raised in certain families. If we gauge the IQ of a black kid raised in a black family (opportunities, resources, and parenting inclusive), on average we should expect a different result than if we gauged an Asian kid's IQ when that child was raised in an Asian family (opportunities, resources, and parenting inclusive). But I would expect certain results if we raised, say, a black kid in an Asian household and vice-versa (assuming comparable genetic health beforehand).

Otherwise, the only genetic differences I can think of would be the result of natural selection, but I question whether or not enough time has passed for that kind of progression to be substantial (natural selection being rich/power surviving over the poor/unintelligent dying out from inability to leverage resources as readily), but this would still result from a sort of "artificial selection" through humans in a sort of sick, morbid way (considering that during slavery, people were intentionally kept "dumb," and intelligence was often punished, even by death).
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:46 PM   #150
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

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Okay, but therein lies the issue.

So we can acknowledge that someone from a poorer background has it harder. What then? We can judge someone's merits and see that it was harder for them to achieve a certain level of qualification, but again, what then? At the end of the day we still need to DO something with these observations.
I understand that, I'm just saying going about it by hiring unqualified minorities isn't the way to go about it. It's a hard question to answer. What can you do?
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:47 PM   #151
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

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How were these gaps evaluated? I can see the explanation as being easy to see if, say, we are looking at children raised in certain families. If we gauge the IQ of a black kid raised in a black family (opportunities, resources, and parenting inclusive), on average we should expect a different result than if we gauged an Asian kid's IQ when that child was raised in an Asian family (opportunities, resources, and parenting inclusive). But I would expect certain results if we raised, say, a black kid in an Asian household and vice-versa (assuming comparable genetic health beforehand).
You would expect this, but whether or not you get that result depends on the study.

Anyway, there is so much information on this topic it's not even funny. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence if you are interested.

It just makes dealing with this issue even more complicated (if it wasn't already bad enough ^^ )
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:47 PM   #152
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

I don't think anyone is going to agree that hiring underqualified minorities is the answer.

Ultimately, we just want to put everyone on a track to actually *be* qualified. That's the hard part, and there's no easy solution.
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Old 10-26-2010, 12:05 AM   #153
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

To some extent I don't find the results surprising, but I do find them depressing -- what a way to throw additional wrenches into an already-touchy subject. Like any other human attribute, natural selection and genetic variation keep the apples falling not-too-far from the tree. Brains that are well-equipped for intelligence are going to produce forth brains of similar mold -- but if anything, this does shed some light on how quickly evolution results in some pretty significant changes for mankind.
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Old 10-26-2010, 02:41 AM   #154
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

Society treats racism as something anyone can define on their own terms. Being classified with such loose definitions everyone claims to be correct, and so easily redefined by the same individuals. Some claims may be similar to others, even pushing to the point where some individuals make an attempt to throw aside a few of their beliefs and try to create a solid foundation. Later, finding out other groups attempted to achieve the same goal, yet their answer is different in almost every way. They begin to clash, causing them question and fear the chance of losing the few beliefs they have left. On top of their struggle with others, individuals in their own group begin to question the conclusion they thought was perfect. Having missed the beliefs they tossed away without reason, then clashing events showing them even more possibilities, they crumble.

Thinking the majority will ensure accuracy. Building the masses and gaining what they thought to be power and authority. Now, little by little, they watch as their numbers slowly fade away. Never truly realizing the irony of what has become of them, they become the minority. Pointing the blame on another group who believes they hold the true power and authority. Yet, if they took the time to assess the situation, it was obvious that tossing away the things they believed in and forcing other beliefs on those who are indifferent caused them to become hollow. The only accomplishment was forgetting why they even started, but more importantly, forgetting what the problem really was.

Racism is man made. The only true definition is that of which we give it. Society changes over time, opinions follow in their path. Though, only looking at this through the perspective of a mass of individuals isn't enough find common ground. Every individual also has their own opinion, and just like society changes, they do too. You can find as many perspectives as you'd like, you will only find that there is too much to factor in if you'd ever want find what you are looking for.

The more you try to get the answer, the more you find places to look. As you get closer to the answer to your own belief, you'll find yourself defining and redefining it over and over again. A never ending struggle made by the same individuals who strive to break free from it.

(Feel free to add more than just these two if you care.)

A racist is a racist in one nation's eyes, a victim in another's.
A racist is a racist in one group's eyes, a victim in another's.
A racist is a racist in one person's eyes, a victim in another's.

Red is red in one nation's eyes, red in another's.
Red is red in one group's eyes, red in another's.
Red is red in one person's eyes, red in another's.

A racist is defined by the opinions others make, not excluding the one made by the accused, based off of the many factors in the current situation.
Attack him if you must, his blood will still be red.

You're fighting a losing battle and asking a question only you can answer.
Any other answers are just meaningless opinions we call our beliefs clawing at your one truth in attempt to bring it down.
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:36 AM   #155
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

What results do you find depressing Rubix? The Wikipedia article? That thing is gianormous and has lots of back and forth...it doesn't leave with saying there's an unexplained IQ difference between blacks and whites. For what its worth, my first year psyc prof bashed Rushton and used many of his studies as examples of what to look out for when we do research. Basically he said Rushton used data which most of the psychological community has agreed is very skewed. (Like those IQ tests of WWII.) Of course, this being such a touchy subject area, people will jump all over it and look at it with a fine toothed comb to point out all the flaws...which is good! (I can only wish all research was poked through so much.)
An interesting tidbit: I found out in school that we measure heritability in human IQ different than we measure it in livestock. Both called heritability, but in measuring heritability for, say, milk production in cows, the measure is much more restrictive.
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:48 AM   #156
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

I didn't just look at that article, Cav -- I did a bit of additional digging through Google.
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Old 10-26-2010, 02:37 PM   #157
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

The word "race" is itself a vague descriptor referring to divergent human populations marked by easily perceptible differences in outward appearance. At this point there's already a problem with guaranteeing the exclusivity of representative samples in any study. And any education you might acquire, on "intelligence", rather than its peripheral mechanics, let alone any statements as definitive as there being a biological basis for differences in performance in cognitive tasks between races, should really be taken with a grain of salt. Intelligence itself is very loosely defined at any meaningful level, and that is the only way it can be, because of how far we are from fully understanding its underlying principles. Wouldn't want to see where you found those results.
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:06 PM   #158
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

It's a fun fact of the way Affirmative Action is set up, that there aren't actually any concrete definitions for what constitutes being a visible minority, or what constitutes belonging to a specific visible minority.

Pretty much, any time you're filling out one of those forms, you can claim to be any minority you want, and there's no legal way to tell you that you lied.
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:09 PM   #159
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

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Originally Posted by ~Zeta~ View Post
A teacher came up with this question when a student in one of my classes said that the substitute was racist:

Is it truly wrong to be a racist person?

I argued it isn't wrong to be racist. It is perfect human for all of man's actions and decisions. If someone's different, it may be unsettling but it does not mean to give them a title and a bad reputation from stereotyping and recurring events. No matter what you do or say, there will always be racist people. There are those mindsets that people have.

What do you think?

Discuss.
Personal opinions can't be wrong, or right.
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:23 PM   #160
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Default Re: Is it wrong to be racist?

My personal opinion is that the moon is made of cheese.

That is wrong. Personal opinions can absolutely be wrong or right.
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