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View Poll Results: Should the FMO's have been downgraded?
Yes. 12 21.05%
No. 45 78.95%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-11-2009, 01:42 AM   #61
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

*Points @ 80% no's*
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:50 AM   #62
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Anyone who voted "no" is an idiot. Certain files were made mad-easy with the avmiss fix and were no longer FMO-worthy. The FMO's that were nerfed were basically VC's that have their difficulty from arrow density.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:54 AM   #63
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Lets just get rid of every easy song.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:56 AM   #64
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

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Originally Posted by MrRubix View Post
Anyone who voted "no" is an idiot. Certain files were made mad-easy with the avmiss fix and were no longer FMO-worthy. The FMO's that were nerfed were basically VC's that have their difficulty from arrow density.
I think much controversy is currently coming from the "wave" of newer VC files that are pretty hard. I think a lot of the old FMO songs are taken care of anyways, with a few exceptions (like NWE). But I realize that my discussion has expanded past old FMOs and is considering the more recent songs, and future ones henceforth.

Also, we're not objective enough on easier songs. I still have no clue what constitutes a difficulty of 2,3,4,5. No one is really complaining about that (it's all about FMOs which "matter more"), but we should still look into the easy songs as well.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:59 AM   #65
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

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This does make sense, but don't forget to take into account the overall number of players of course. This is obvious when you compare a public song vs a token song, or an early-released song vs a new song. And then there's song popularity, which would definitely impact the number of good scores present. An obscure song that not many people play would be a different story, and this might even override the clues provided by the simfiles difficulty (e.g. an unpopular, but easy song may not have as many AAAs as it should. At the same time, there can be a multitude of sucky players, so the ratio of good to bad scores is skewed).
Oh, of course. My point assumes a well-randomized and sufficiently large population.

The problem is that we may need to account for skill threshold bias. E.g. really noob players are going to suck at a 9 just as hard as they'd suck at a 12 if they have no idea what they're doing and are just mashing, and will probably not play the harder files as often. This problem exists in reverse: An awesome player will dominate any file equal to or below his AAA-ability. There are certainly more noobs than there are great players, and so we need to take into account that noob players aren't exactly rushing to play OMW. This general point is further substantiated by http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...p?sort=overall

Also consider http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...t.php?sort=aaa

This is why I suggested that we try to "objectively" define difficulty. The problem I see with being practical is that to a new player, even a song with jumps is considered really hard. A song that makes you hit a few different arrows in a short timeframe is hard. An expert player may overlook these hurdles in assessing difficulty.

I don't think we need to get super hardcore and need to mega-calculate it all, but rather just pick a reasonable threshold that we think will account for significant differences in difficulty (I think 20 is good) and try to evaluate from there.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:05 AM   #66
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

No doubt. Pick out main factors, don't worry about subfactors and all that. At least that's better than what we have now.

So how is this going to work...
New thread? Someone in charge of initiating the new difficulty system? etc.
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Old 11-11-2009, 03:33 AM   #67
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Of course difficulty ratings aren't related with people's skill at all.
Last time we just fixed some difficulty inconsistency, and the effect of avmiss (haven't done enough adjustment), mirror etc.

Completely objective difficulty rating system would be awesome if it actually works better than current system.. I can say it's really hard to create, since we failed to do in the past. especially digitalizing difficulties of rhythm/pattern related things.

btw is this argument really new thread worthy?
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:07 AM   #68
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

20 is definitely a good scale to go off of. I agree that the used to be FMO's that used to have the avmiss problem (that solely based their difficulty because of it) should be downgraded. Others that the community were just getting better at that were downgraded are borderline to me. They could be FMO or VC. It all depends on the player who really defines the difficulties. A 20 scale isn't going to be perfect for everyone, but for the majority it will. There will still be people complaining about the new system and how stupid it is, but there are always people in the world like that.

20 system = +1
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:14 AM   #69
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

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Originally Posted by MrRubix View Post
Anyone who voted "no" is an idiot. Certain files were made mad-easy with the avmiss fix and were no longer FMO-worthy.
Apparently I wasn't disagreeing with Silence and NWE etc getting pulled down. They were far easier than Kanon Kanon or Bus Rides

I was saying that easiest FMOs shouldn't be moved to VC just because they are easy, and there should be a set borderline between the hardest VC and the easiest FMO.
(or we should rather change the entire difficulty system)

My bad; I didn't see the word 'old' in the title -_- but whatever
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:29 AM   #70
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

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Originally Posted by MrRubix View Post
Anyone who voted "no" is an idiot. Certain files were made mad-easy with the avmiss fix and were no longer FMO-worthy. The FMO's that were nerfed were basically VC's that have their difficulty from arrow density.
Marcus, stop. Why are people idiots for saying no? Its their opinion.

What I feel should have happened, and to this day should happen, is they should ADD a difficulty or two. For one, songs like GOSW, NWE, VB, should have a difficulty of 11. TDSOK, Hajnal, etc etc should have a difficulty of 12. FN, KM, LOLO, should have 13. Other FGOS should be 14. Rato, DP 15. so on and so forth. Thats what I feel should happen.

1-easiest
2-for beginners
3-very easy
4-easy
5-standard
6-Tricky
7-Difficult
8-Very Difficult
9-Challenging
10-Very Challenging
11-Masters
12-High Masters
13-Gurus
14-High Gurus
15-God (haha)

But seriously something like that.

I agree with the fact that people grow over time. The quality and accuracy of people on the site WILL obviously grow, as it has shown. Now I say yes and no to the poll. Cause I agree keeping songs at the SAME difficulty would only make chaos. CIA Rave was an FMO iirc when this site first started right? Yeah. So that means by your logic we could obtain ONI from CIA Rave then? Over time songs will get harder. For all we know there could be a file called Sabatoge your wrists like mr.rubix. That could be a level 38 :/. who knows. Pretty much what we have to do is just sit by and watch. Nothing we say really matters as it clearly has shown.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:20 PM   #71
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

the problem is probably prevalent in the lower levels too, but we the experienced players notice the higher difficulty faults because anything below a 10 (for most of us here) is a AAA or at least easy. I'm sure if you talked to someone who wasn't good at the game, they'd find problems with lower difficults.

so again rubix's idea of a total revision of the levels with a 20 level scale is best but Krunky's is a good idea for just the higher levels.

I am surprised more than 80% of people in this thread voted no....
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:33 PM   #72
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Agreed. Didn't fully read Rubix's post. Go with that idea xD
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:14 PM   #73
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

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so again rubix's idea of a total revision of the levels with a 20 level scale is best but Krunky's is a good idea for just the higher levels.
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I had an idea with this.
Because the Actual Difficulties thread uses a 99-point scale, why not divvy it up into chunks of 5 and create 20 difficulties? Sure names may be a pain to figure out, but this way it creates a solid way to place songs into difficulties.
Oh, RUBIX'S idea, eh?
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:45 PM   #74
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

I voted "no". I've only been playing FFR since just after the avmiss fix, but the VC-FMO line was a pretty clear thing and didn't change very much for quite a while. There were a lot of changes right at the beginning (especially since subbies had access to avmiss fix for a while and could clearly tell which songs got easier and which didn't), but as I recall it pretty quickly stabilized and we had stuff like LW4, NWE, Novo, etc that are still in my mind the cutoff for what feels like FMO.

I think what's happened recently with all the technically difficult VCs is related to the difference between FC/reading difficulty and AAA difficulty. Traditionally songs have been ranked by the difficulty to read/combo because that's what people first encounter as they get good enough to play a song - if we put something like SSSG into the VC range you'd get a ton of people who comment about getting like 10 goods on a "VC" when they can't combo anything else above a 6-7 difficulty. But now we have a lot of songs in the 9-10 range that are relatively easy to read (they don't belong in FMO by that standard) but really tough to AAA (stuff like Didj has only 38 AAAs -> belongs in FMO by that criterion). The problem there is that now when straightforward but fast low-FMO type songs come by (Kanon-Kanon, Slaytronic) people realize they are a lot easier to AAA than the technical VCs (which is true) and move them down to VC even though they're still pretty tough to actually play. The people who don't have speed (like me and probably most of the FFR community) will always think those songs are placed too low, but I already know it'll never get changed - the technical songs have permanently raised people's views of what the VC-FMO dividing line is.
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Repeating, please no retarded files that aren't even going with the song
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:05 PM   #75
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Just everyone quit bitching jeeeezus.

Its all opinion, someone whos great at this game's opinion will always differ from people who arent.

So just leave it be, and go play the game.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:12 PM   #76
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

I am referring to the way **** was being judged pre-avmiss -- with the avmiss fix, the difficulty of the game was revamped in a major way, re-defining what was a VC and FMO because certain songs were totally nerfed. These changes are correct in spirit and it'd be stupid to argue otherwise. If a file was set from FMO to VC (I haven't paid attention to what those files may be because I AAA'd them eons ago and never looked back) without having any significant difficulty changes as a result of framer nerf, then that is stupid.

And so, after avmisses have been fixed, what is marked as an FMO is an FMO. If a new file fits the same difficulty profile as an FMO, it's an FMO. You do not "move the goalposts" by saying "now an FMO is harder than before" arbitrarily. If a group of people are getting better, then they're getting better than FMO. The community used to have trouble back in early 2000's with files that we'd now consider VC's (BMR's A and V and G2 holla).

Doesn't change the fact that the difficulty of a file can be objectively derived and evaluated. If a file that should be harder ISN'T actually harder, then you're missing an important variable somewhere that should account for why it isn't actually as hard. All relevant variables need to be considered in evaluation.


This isn't even debatable. Vote "no" if you're an idiot. Most files that were nerfed were the result of avmiss, as far as I'm aware. If I am wrong about this, let me know.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:19 PM   #77
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

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Anyone who voted "no" is an idiot. Certain files were made mad-easy with the avmiss fix and were no longer FMO-worthy. The FMO's that were nerfed were basically VC's that have their difficulty from arrow density.
^

Although I've fought for other songs because they were obviously misranked in comparison to files in that general difficulty.

Anyone who still thinks NWE is an FMO needs to hit themself in the head with a frying pan. Anyone who thinks SC is still an FMO needs to hit themself with a head with a keyboard. [etc.]

I do agree that certain songs are borderline between VC and FMO, and I also understand that people's bias toward aspects of the game will determine which way they'll decide a file will tilt in this area--you cannot sit here and say that certain files need to get be raised and dropped. I'm looking at all of these people who are going "IT SHOULD BE THIS BECAUSE I GOT THIS RANK" or "IT SHOULD BE THIS BECAUSE I HAVEN'T GOTTEN THIS GOOD OF A SCORE AND THAT MAKES IT EASIER"--no. I'm going to leave this thread now because I've fought about difficulty ratings in other games and I simply hate hearing it.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:25 PM   #78
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Ah heck, might as well say something. I'm bored. What about the lower level songs? Once 300 AAA's were hit, was a 6 changed to a 5 because of that?

Avmiss was a long time ago. There's been enough time for people to change the difficulties. Just want to know why recently BESIDES that "everyone" is getting better.

I voted no and I'm an idiot. At least I can admit/be fine with it. And you're using lame propaganda with it. As people have said, opinion.

*hits head with his keyboard* =P
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:27 PM   #79
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

silence etc were changed for difficulty adjustment.

and until you show some "objective" method to evaluate difficulty, discussions here don't generate anything.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:29 PM   #80
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Default Re: Should the old FMO's have been downgraded to VC's?

Again, I feel like difficulty needs to be stretched out a bit, because I feel it'll correctly account for the variance. Trying to stuff a skill range from Free Space to Death Piano from like 1 to 12 is just not enough. 1 to 20 would be a great way to have a bit more precision with the ratings. It'll likely eliminate most borderline cases. I feel like the current ratings are decent up until you start hitting the VC mark. At this point, the difficulty of songs start to go all over the place from ESC to **** like RATO -- a massive jump compared to, say, level 1 to even 6.

I think much of the problem occurs when a song is overall, very easy, but may have a particular section that skews perception. Take NWE -- overall, it's CLEARLY VC, but many argue it's FMO because of certain ending-chains. Even Runnymorning falls victim to this. If not for the megajack, the file would drop to VC status or lower without a second glance (and it USED to be FGO because the damn file was hard as hell to FC, let alone PA, with all the three-framers, which are now easy as hell with the avmiss fix).

I admit it's a bit harder to evaluate files with localized sections of inconsistent difficulty, but this is why I think we need to determine a rough metric for weighting such things while increasing the difficulty thresholds to give a reasonable accountability system for the fine-tuned differences.

The community has been getting better for years. Anyone who's been here from the start knows this. We used to find Max300 impossible to FC, and now we're quadding it. Road of Oni was considered beastly, but now it's child's play. Even Legend Road has been passed, FC'd, and nearly AAA'd by multiple people now, whereas it was seen as OMG ARE YOU KIDDING when it first came out. People will always get better -- but it doesn't mean it's reasonable to shift the goalposts. It simply means the community is beating the goalposts. They should still be static.

Again, an objective rating can be derived from a simple statistical weighting of different song attributes coupled with market-force performance with selection bias accounted for via level play data.
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