ATTN: Scoring System Needed

[stargroup]

Originally Posted by Silvuh

Here's something of an idea...

If accuracy doesn't matter, then you only need a judge window for "hit".
To penalize mashing, what FFR calls a boo should be included. If you don't want to use the same names, you could call that a miss or a slip, and not hitting a note would be a pass.
Instead of a life bar, there could be a penalty bar. The bar would increase any time you let a note pass, press a key outside of the hit window, release a freeze, or hit a mine. The bar would decrease over time and with each note hit. Each point you have in the bar when you make a mistake would be added to your penalty score. If the bar fills, you would fail a song.
The point of this system would be to score you on how often you make mistakes.
I'm not sure if that's close to what you're looking for, but it's not based on accuracy or combo... so, yeah. It's an idea.

"Boos" would be bad because you could accidentally hit keys you didn't mean to. I actually find them very annoying. On top of that, some people do feel advantages to tapping out keys that aren't there or they do it to keep themselves interested during boring parts of a song.

Penalty bar is actually an interesting idea. I'll think about that one. Although in the end it's not much different from a life bar.

Simply hit or miss is too simple though. If you're not hitting the note accurately enough to feel the file but enough to warrant score, then you should at least be awarded SOMETHING. If wanted something that simple I wouldn't have asked the community for input.

[Kraezymann]

What if you made the score system similar to IIDX's Expert Course?

Its sort of like Silvuh's idea with the penalty bar but instead of a bar filling up, you start at 100 and drop everytime you get less than a good? Timing windows can stay the same as SM but you use this instead of points?

[buizel8888]

You could use just hit and miss, but make the timing window more strict

[tunsz555]

Please don't take combos into scoring. If you have played Osu! before you will know that missed a note middle of song is serious advantage to missing a note in the beginning.

If judgement result are same the score would be same too.

Ps. If you seriously make this new Stepmania you should make new thread about Stepmania's weak point, missing function.

[stargroup]

explain this missing function

also yes combo will be nothing more than a decoration. no scoring based off combo no siree

buizel I told you already too simple

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by stargroup

Simply hit or miss is too simple though. If you're not hitting the note accurately enough to feel the file but enough to warrant score, then you should at least be awarded SOMETHING. If wanted something that simple I wouldn't have asked the community for input.

Hmmm...I know you said that you didn't want numbers only, but what if you combined a percentage system of scoring along side of a comparison to a passmark like IIDX/Pop'n?

Here's an idea I had. Alongside of a scoring system, you would use a passmark (per se) for awarding and or penalizing a player based on their performance altogether.

First thing, set your passmark equivalent so the lowest possible passing percentage, to make things even. IIDX likes to set it at 70% (and Pop'n even higher), but I think that's a bit too high. Something like 60% would be a decent grade cut-off not only for a pass, but for a passing lifebar as well.

Next, you come up with a defined score system for your grades. Let's just think about the AA to D range.

Originally Posted by Generic Scoring System

AA - 95%
A - 90%
B - 80%
C - 70%
D - 60%

Anything below this would be a fail. Everything above AAA can still be perfects and the AAAA can either be all marvelouses or just completely gone.

Then you can do a passmark percentage and incorporate it within the main score. Based off of what you said:

Simply hit or miss is too simple though. If you're not hitting the note accurately enough to feel the file but enough to warrant score, then you should at least be awarded SOMETHING. If wanted something that simple I wouldn't have asked the community for input.

I agree with this. The way I was thinking of awarding the player is awarding them based off of how well they do on the song. General formula would be something like this

< 60% = DP% - % below passmark/10
> 60% = DP% + % above passmark/20

Example:
Player 1 finishes song X with 62% DP and a lifebar of 30%. They are 30% below the passmark, so they'll be deducted 3%, giving them a 59% and causing them to fail.

Player 2 finishes song X with 58% DP and a lifebar of 100%. They are 40% above the passmark, so they'll get a bonus of 2%, giving them a 60% and causing them to pass.

Good thing about this is that if a player does particularly well on a song that they have trouble with, and they finish strong, they can get rewarded just enough to cause them to get them to the grade that they want.

Alternatively, if you were to have an AAA and hit something that you weren't supposed (i.e. a mine), you wouldn't lose DP in this instance because the all perfect run would be something that overrides the passmark--it'd just drop your machine score a tiny bit.

Something like that. I'm just brainstorming.

[stargroup]

Not bad at all. Liking the passing system. I'm also considering the possibility of removing fail-outs. Sometimes it's fun just to mash through a song and try your best.

However:

S - 98%
A - 95%
B - 90%
C - 80%
D - 70%
E - 60%

I was thinking something along those lines. As people get better and better and the levels get harder and harder, it becomes easier and easier to hit high DP's close to 100%, and that's why AA's are so ridiculously common in StepMania. By pushing this as close to 100% as possible, we can close that gap and balance out the letter ranks.

Of course I just pulled that number out of my butt. Obviously we're gonna have to do some analysis before we decide on what DP's to set for each letter grade.

[gnr61]

passmark would be an interesting idea for stepmania but ultimately not a -whole- lot better than progressive scoring in that it arbitrarily favors one section of the file (end) in terms of scoring value. structural differences in files would lead to percentage comparisons lacking any referential significance, a presumed goal of percentage scoring in the first place. according to your model you also leave open the potential (intentional or otherwise) of acquiring over 100% total dp on a given song which doesn't make a lot of sense.

a hit-or-miss model in terms of accuracy scoring would be completely inefficient for this game as opposed to something like guitar hero (which includes what silvah refers to as 'slips' and other alternative score-alterers like star power bonuses) for the simple reason that it would result in absurd amounts of people obtaining indistinguishably close or identical scores on nearly every chart and the only charts that would end up being significant indicators of skill would be those generally resulting in massive cb discrepancy between players, a la death moon, rain etc; and no one wants that do they D:

sorry i don't have anything productive to say

edit: actually my criticisms on the passmark thing only -really- apply to the dp bonus element and not so much to the passmark itself which might be alright

[Patashu]

Instead of 'boos' you could have IIDX's 'poors' which you get if you hit an extra NEAR notes on the chart that are ineligible (either because they're outside of the lowest scoring window or have already been hit)

Concerning the penalty bar: I actually think a REVERSE penalty bar would be better. From personal experience, when I'm bad at a rhythm game I get combo breakers at a consistent pace, not so much piled up in single areas. Therefore a pattern of consistently breaking combo is a sign of the song being very hard for you, where as accidental slips that rack up several CBs at once might just be accidental. So there actually is some worth in GH style combo scoring, where you're penalized for having widely distributed combo breakers but not for getting a large clump in a row by mistake nor overly rewarded for having an extensively long combo (maxes out at 4x)

[Xiaounlimited]

Originally Posted by stargroup

S - 98%
A - 95%
B - 90%
C - 80%
D - 70%
E - 60%

I was thinking something along those lines. As people get better and better and the levels get harder and harder, it becomes easier and easier to hit high DP's close to 100%, and that's why AA's are so ridiculously common in StepMania. By pushing this as close to 100% as possible, we can close that gap and balance out the letter ranks.

How about simply abolishing letter grades altogether? It's perfectly feasible to just have the DP%.

The best example I can think of would be ITG; if you ever watch a video, there is never a C/S+/star/double/whatever in the title. "Mechanical Love - 99.14%" That has specific, and oftentimes, more meaningful information than "AA".

IMHO - figure out the scoring system period and ignore the need for letter grades. That's just me, though.

[Patashu]

Could you possibly divide the score up into two components, Accuracy Score and Comboing Score, which are displayed separately as well as totaled for a grand total? Because sometimes you're doing **** on one but awesome on the other

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by gnr61

passmark would be an interesting idea for stepmania but ultimately not a -whole- lot better than progressive scoring in that it arbitrarily favors one section of the file (end) in terms of scoring value. structural differences in files would lead to percentage comparisons lacking any referential significance, a presumed goal of percentage scoring in the first place. according to your model you also leave open the potential (intentional or otherwise) of acquiring over 100% total dp on a given song which doesn't make a lot of sense.

My mentioned idea isn't a scoring bonus at all as much as it is a performance bonus. Say that a song has a total score of 1,000,000 points and you get 890,000. You'd have an 89%, which would give you a B, but if you were to have done well on the file, you'd have enough of a % bonus to give you the A. The bonus is exclusive to percentage and not really machine score. I do see what you are saying about the system favoring the end of the file, but that's where you have to adjust the way the lifebar reacts to the way you score. Take IIDX again as an example. You could be doing relatively well, but the moment a hard section comes, your life percentage gets absolutely destroyed and it's not enough to really boost your percentage at all. That's why having a relatively high passmark rewards nicely, and also allows the player to build up a tiny bit of life to avoid taking a severe cut in DP%.

a hit-or-miss model in terms of accuracy scoring would be completely inefficient for this game as opposed to something like guitar hero (which includes what silvah refers to as 'slips' and other alternative score-alterers like star power bonuses) for the simple reason that it would result in absurd amounts of people obtaining indistinguishably close or identical scores on nearly every chart and the only charts that would end up being significant indicators of skill would be those generally resulting in massive cb discrepancy between players, a la death moon, rain etc; and no one wants that do they D:

It would be. That's why it shouldn't be considered.

edit: actually my criticisms on the passmark thing only -really- apply to the dp bonus element and not so much to the passmark itself which might be alright

Read above. Also, you did have something productive to say, it cleared up the passmark bonus issue.

EDIT: 4K posts \o/

[stargroup]

NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE

keep up this discussion this is great

gimme some time to digest all of this though

[Silvuh]

Originally Posted by stargroup

I actually find them very annoying. On top of that, some people do feel advantages to tapping out keys that aren't there or they do it to keep themselves interested during boring parts of a song.

Oops, I wasn't aware of that. There should be some way to penalize mashing, though... other than with accuracy. Maybe if there are three or more key presses in the judgment window of a single note, there could be a penalty?
... And Patashu said something similar before I finished my post.

Originally Posted by stargroup

If you're not hitting the note accurately enough to feel the file but enough to warrant score, then you should at least be awarded SOMETHING.

Okay, yeah, thought so. I had an idea for accuracy, but I didn't mention it earlier, because I hadn't realized the difference between "how accurately you hit the note" and "being in time".
Still going with there only being a hit window here, say the standard window is 50 milliseconds. The max penalty for inaccurately hitting the note would be 50. You could have one of those exponential curves on the penalty-to-milliseconds graph. That should help the scoring lean towards being in time. And the max penalty would stay at 50 as the window tightens with the judge difficulty.
That's a generic number, though. I don't feel knowledgeable enough to calculate specific weightings between accuracy and other mistakes.
And then you can give ranges of milliseconds accuracy titles, if you like.
... and how high your ranking on the song would depend on how close your score is to 0. And there would be some equation related to how many notes are in the song and stuff to find the score ranges... if you want to add rankings.

P.S. I wonder if my initial instinct to make the score based on how bad you are says something about my personality.
Also, sorry that I'm being too simple... I'll just leave the more intricate thinking to you experts. I don't know all these other scoring systems or DP or that stuff...
EDIT:
Wow, I'm slow. Well... doesn't really look like my input is needed...

[abstractrevenge]

Originally Posted by Patashu

Instead of 'boos' you could have IIDX's 'poors' which you get if you hit an extra NEAR notes on the chart that are ineligible (either because they're outside of the lowest scoring window or have already been hit)

Concerning the penalty bar: I actually think a REVERSE penalty bar would be better. From personal experience, when I'm bad at a rhythm game I get combo breakers at a consistent pace, not so much piled up in single areas. Therefore a pattern of consistently breaking combo is a sign of the song being very hard for you, where as accidental slips that rack up several CBs at once might just be accidental. So there actually is some worth in GH style combo scoring, where you're penalized for having widely distributed combo breakers but not for getting a large clump in a row by mistake nor overly rewarded for having an extensively long combo (maxes out at 4x)

This would be awesome. It would help the way a "Machine Score" would be determined on a song that has a constant difficulty. Say something like TOML.

But what happens on songs like Almost There? The song is hard for like 10 seconds and then you combo everything and just get a lot of points for easy bs, and the score would be influenced by the wrong part of the file. Much like a song with an easy ending makes your MS higher now.

Originally Posted by Xiaounlimited

How about simply abolishing letter grades altogether? It's perfectly feasible to just have the DP%.

The best example I can think of would be ITG; if you ever watch a video, there is never a C/S+/star/double/whatever in the title. "Mechanical Love - 99.14%" That has specific, and oftentimes, more meaningful information than "AA".

IMHO - figure out the scoring system period and ignore the need for letter grades. That's just me, though.

I totally agree with this, BUT I still like letter grades. It's just something to sort out your DP. I'd prefer it show both like ITG machines do.

However this is how I think things should be sorted. I don't like S that letter is very stupid for use with A-E. Instead I think we should implement a new lowest letter grade to make E-AAAA scoring and F be failing.

Range would be as follows

100=AAAA
98-99.9=AAA
95-97.9=AA
90-94.9=A
85-89.9=B
80-84.9=C
70-79=D
60-69=E
0-59=F

The accuracy base of the DP would be Marvelous instead of perfect obviously making AAA possible with enough Marvelous even with bad greats or CB's making the letter grade mean nothing more than putting a general reference to how well you did

Originally Posted by Patashu

Could you possibly divide the score up into two components, Accuracy Score and Comboing Score, which are displayed separately as well as totaled for a grand total? Because sometimes you're doing **** on one but awesome on the other

This might be cool for songs that are comboable, but at the sacrifice of MA because of stamina issues. However, it seems completely unnecessary though

[Patashu]

How about, when 'stepmania' computes the note data for a chart, it assigns to each note a 'scoring multiplier' based on its proximity to other notes and how many other long holds are held when you hit it (and how many different notes you've had to have hit during those holds)? It might need a little extra fudge in having to look at how erratic and/or lopsided the patterns are as well (32nd rolls are dense but not hard)

Then you can have a 'voltage' score by looking at only the song's top 10% hardest rated notes or whatever

edit: and you could have a 'chaos' score by looking at how you did on the top 10% most erratically placed notes or w/e. this is a little harder but basically it would involve looking at whenever the distance between consecutive notes changed, and assigning this an aura based on how close the notes are and how irrational the ratio between this and the last duration was; for instance doubling or halving is worth almost nothing, but things like 2/3 or 3/2 have a bigger aura. it would then spread these auras out and add them together when they overlap, and the notes in the areas of highest aura are considered to be in the places of highest chaos. idk I think that'd be interesting

[abstractrevenge]

Originally Posted by Patashu

How about, when 'stepmania' computes the note data for a chart, it assigns to each note a 'scoring multiplier' based on its proximity to other notes and how many other long holds are held when you hit it (and how many different notes you've had to have hit during those holds)? It might need a little extra fudge in having to look at how erratic and/or lopsided the patterns are as well (32nd rolls are dense but not hard)

Then you can have a 'voltage' score by looking at only the song's top 10% hardest rated notes or whatever

In all honesty it's a cool idea to make a score flashy, but I think all notes should be worth the same value.

Then from that value you get +X points where x=your judgement.

Where also if you miss it's -X points

this system would mean your Score is DIRECTLY related to your DP, not your combo OR where the note lands in a song

[Patashu]

but as you just pointed out not all notes are created equal; most of almost there is easy ****, so why should those notes be worth as much to hit?

oh how about a GH style combo scorer but with a far far shorter limit; that is, 1.0x for a 0 combo, 1.1x for 1 combo...2.0x for 10 combo and up. that doesn't make bursts of cbs quite as bad as single cbs in varying places

[abstractrevenge]

Okay well I don't like a combo multiplier idea, but with the idea of making things worth different values score wise patterns would have to be judged.

On a scale of say 1-10 the "Difficulty" of that pattern to hit judging then how many points on a scale of 1-10 said pattern is worth.

The easier the pattern, the less the point value.

The only problem with this system is how are these patterns judged? Some patterns are really annoying at low speed, but much easier at faster speeds (IE Rolls), and yet the opposite can be said for things like runningmen.

Basically there is no perfect way to have a score, but then again a score isn't needed. I think your score should be your DP and the letter grade is reflecting your score which is actually just the exact percentage out of all marvelous you got.



EDIT: also just a side note. I think perfect and marvelous should be switched. Because honestly how could you time something BETTER than perfect?

[Xiaounlimited]

Osu! has a concept called Kiai Time that mappers can implement into their beatmaps. What it allows is the mapper to set a certain timeframe for Kiai Time to activate, up to a certain limit. During this timeframe, the score multiplier is increased (iirc it's 1.1 or 1.2) for the duration of it. Something similar could be done here so while notes would be of equal worth, steppers (charters, mappers, w/e) could add this into sections that would be worthy of it (i.e. Almost There's dumpstream) and therefore have a more profound effect on score.