東方楽踊脇 Touhou Gouyoukyou (Touhou Pad Pack Rebirth; now accepting)

[ddr_f4n]

TC_Halogen, how about 3rd Eye? Or Mysterious Mountain?

[TrickMasterMint]

No one is touching Satori Maiden ~ 3rd Eye.

Also, Gpop and sc979, I have your stepfile reviews almost done. I will PM them to you upon completion.

[skyfox_]

sent 3 files, the gfx are kinda...but yeah...

[~Zero~]

I think i might step something for this

havent found anything good though

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by ddr_f4n

TC_Halogen, how about 3rd Eye? Or Mysterious Mountain?

What game is it from? I'll try my hand at it, but probably fail because like I said: Touhou songs around here come out to be 14+. xD

[ddr_f4n]

Satori Maiden ~ 3rd Eye - SA

The Youkai Mountain ~ Mysterious Mountain - MoF

[TC_Halogen]

Well, since someone had a slight attitude about me touching Satori Maiden, I'll listen to The Youkai Mountain. =p

[TrickMasterMint]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Touhou songs around here come out to be 14+. xD

WHY? I don't understand WHY people have to make these songs so hard. They don't need to be, and half the time, it's artificially difficult or just boring 16th stream. Seriously, people.

[skyfox_]

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

WHY? I don't understand WHY people have to make these songs so hard. They don't need to be, and half the time, it's artificially difficult or just boring 16th stream. Seriously, people.

because the game itself is hard, like halogen, i used to think that since the game is hard, anything related to it MUST be hard(and when i do think of some songs they sound like they could come out to 13-15 ft.s)

er...thats pretty much the gist of it i guess...

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

WHY? I don't understand WHY people have to make these songs so hard. They don't need to be, and half the time, it's artificially difficult or just boring 16th stream. Seriously, people.

16th stream isn't boring at that speed, and I make charts like that simply because I'm trying to better myself as a player. Doesn't mean that I can't make good charts.

Besides, the songs have so much energy in them, it just makes you want to try harder to pass them. If you think that 16th stream is boring simply because it's too difficult, that's on you--but don't sit here and tell me just because a song that merits 16th runs is stepped the way it should be is boring.

"Seriously, people."

I can understand that you are trying to limit the amount of hard songs there, and hell, you can say that in your reviews: something like "good, but too hard and we have enough of this" or to that extent. But to simply cut off boss songs makes the pack have no variety--and with the ITG community growing increasingly better, this pack isn't going to have any interest to them at all.

Go to ITGfreak--a pack with 13-18 foot songs, yeah, it may sound dumb, but guess what? People want to play it. The general ITG community can pass 9-12 with their hands behind their back (take it as literally as you want), and with you completely cutting off the spectrum of difficulties that people are playing most, you are also stopping the interest of the pack to most of the community.

This whole post may seem pointless to you, but I'm saying the damn truth.

Also, just to make manners worse, I don't think you are in any position to run a pad pack based on some of the awful steps I seen in Mintmania.

Don't ask me on what I thought was bad, because I'll take a whole page to explain it. Let me just say that you have no sense in pattern usage, the charts look pretty bland, and you have a big problem with ambiguous step patterns. Not to mention there are crappy remixes of actually good DDR songs--I mean, come the hell on, not one, but TWO crappy remixes of Paranoia Survivor featuring a Asian singer of some sort.

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

They don't need to be, and half the time, it's artificially difficult or just boring 16th stream.

Yeah, fffff wasn't boring 16th stream at all. (P.S. nice double-step at bar 36, and bat pattern choice at bar 42)

The fact that I'm able to only open a few songs and judge what kind of stepper you are just strengthens the fact that this pack isn't going to go well. Sorry, but that's just how I feel.

P.S. I knew something was wrong when you said this:

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

All I can say for now is that your Oni charts are a mess. Border of extacy and Hakureiwhatever Marching Song are okay but need some work, but the rest of them are just cluster****s.

Because ddr_f4n's Oni charts are usually good; after playing Mintmania and seeing you reject a file of his just made me laugh, because you probably lost a pretty good chart.

Anyway, I'm done for now. All of this stemmed down from your last post, by the way, because not only was it hypocritical, it was just wrong. Saying that 16th streams can't be fun on pad is absolutely retarded, and it's probably due to the fact that you can't survive long enough to enjoy the amount of stamina it takes for a pass on it.

[TrickMasterMint]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Besides, the songs have so much energy in them, it just makes you want to try harder to pass them.

Need I remind you that you wanted to make a 14-footer version of ZUN's Love-Colored Master Spark? Have you actually listened to that song? You do realize that you don't have to put an arrow to every note, right? Most people are going to look at that and go "You know what? No."

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

If you think that 16th stream is boring simply because it's too difficult, that's on you--but don't sit here and tell me just because a song that merits 16th runs is stepped the way it should be is boring.

No song MERITS 16th runs. Just because a song can have them doesn't mean they should.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

But to simply cut off boss songs makes the pack have no variety--and with the ITG community growing increasingly better, this pack isn't going to have any interest to them at all.

If you can find where I stated that boss songs are not allowed, then by all means, quote me on it.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Go to ITGfreak--a pack with 13-18 foot songs, yeah, it may sound dumb, but guess what? People want to play it. The general ITG community can pass 9-12 with their hands behind their back (take it as literally as you want), and with you completely cutting off the spectrum of difficulties that people are playing most, you are also stopping the interest of the pack to most of the community.

Yup, because the majority of dance game players are the BlueMystics and DukAmoks of the world. How about you come out into the real world where people don't need 18-footers to have fun? If I want to play IIDX, I'll play IIDX. With my hands. I don't want or need to play charts that many people who struggle to clear on a keyboard to enjoy myself on a machine. Are you especially aware of the demographic to which this pack caters?

Not to mention that you seem to live in a world where ITG2 machines are plentiful, when in reality, many of us don't even have arcades within a reasonable distance.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

This whole post may seem pointless to you, but I'm saying the damn truth.

Not pointless, just hilariously skewed.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Also, just to make manners worse, I don't think you are in any position to run a pad pack based on some of the awful steps I seen in Mintmania.

I have admitted to the problems with mintmania in the past. The pack is like 2 or 3 years old at this point; yeah, there's quite a bit that I've gone back and discovered was quite terrible. Rislim and The Irony of Chaste are just two example of files of my own creation that I find lacking, and files like Tell Me A Story were submissions I should have looked at better. Go tell me that years ago, and maybe you'll see a better pack.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Not to mention there are crappy remixes of actually good DDR songs--I mean, come the hell on, not one, but TWO crappy remixes of Paranoia Survivor featuring a Asian singer of some sort.

Both of which are joke mashups that were found to be humorous by the communities I was a part of. You probably didn't like Healing Monolith or Jack Spinnaz either. Sorry.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Yeah, fffff wasn't boring 16th stream at all. (P.S. nice double-step at bar 36, and bat pattern choice at bar 42)

The double-step is in measure 35, and yeah, pattern choice could've been better. Go grab a time machine, and I'll fix it so we don't have this conversation.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

The fact that I'm able to only open a few songs and judge what kind of stepper you are just strengthens the fact that this pack isn't going to go well. Sorry, but that's just how I feel.

I like your clairvoyance. Can you tell me what next week's lottery numbers will be too?

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Because ddr_f4n's Oni charts are usually good; after playing Mintmania and seeing you reject a file of his just made me laugh, because you probably lost a pretty good chart.

I did not reject any of ddr_f4n's files. I actually had a few people look at the files with me, one of which is actually well-versed in pad charts and has done quite well in SM file tournaments, another who is decent at ITG2 in the 12+ difficulty spectrum, and we were all able to agree that gigantic minefields and unnecessary 16th notes trills do not a fun file make. Maybe it does for you, but again, you are not part of a majority. ddr_f4n's files need adjustments, but they are well-constructed simfiles. I specified in the OP that I did not want artificial difficulty, and the minefields alone create exactly that.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Anyway, I'm done for now. All of this stemmed down from your last post, by the way, because not only was it hypocritical, it was just wrong. Saying that 16th streams can't be fun on pad is absolutely retarded, and it's probably due to the fact that you can't survive long enough to enjoy the amount of stamina it takes for a pass on it.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I never once said that 16th stream can't be fun on pad. It's like you saw some words and just went into total rage mode. Quit spergin' and chill out.

You know, if you'd like, how about I hand this pack over to you? That way, you can have all the 18-footers you want so the handful of you who somehow call that fun can go off and masturbate to each other's scores. In the meantime, I'll make something that's actually fun for the rest of us, the 80+% of us who like both Touhou and dance games and think that dickwagging is retarded. Sound good to you?

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

Need I remind you that you wanted to make a 14-footer version of ZUN's Love-Colored Master Spark? Have you actually listened to that song? You do realize that you don't have to put an arrow to every note, right? Most people are going to look at that and go "You know what? No."

Are you kidding me? Most of the people who even care about playing custom songs in the first place wouldn't want to deal with low-level songs for a whole pack. A pack with only 12s and lower with absolutely nothing to challenge a player doesn't do any good to the community at all. Let me remind you that this project is being presented/released to a community.

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

No song MERITS 16th runs. Just because a song can have them doesn't mean they should.

This is obviously the most ignorant thing I have seen a step-artist say. So, you mean to tell me that if there is a song that has only 16th note melodies, you're going to water it down to 8th notes? Get real. Also--before you tell me to name a song that applies to the situation, I can name one: Voyager 1970 from Imperishable Night. The main melody is nothing but 16th notes, and the percussion is a mix between 16ths/32nd notes. What then? You're gonna take a perfectly good song and ruin it by making it a 9 footer that poorly syncopates to a melody? Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it.

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

If you can find where I stated that boss songs are not allowed, then by all means, quote me on it.

3. No stepchart can exceed a difficulty of 12 on the ITG rating scale.

Now before you say that I left out the other point you said: sure, you said songs 12+ can be allowed with full consent of the pack leader. But, this goes back to you saying that charts 12+ are artificially difficult, which leads to you not accepting them into this group anyway.

With that being said, I also get the feeling if someone were to put something like an 11 or 12 on hard, you'd also reject it.

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

Yup, because the majority of dance game players are the BlueMystics and DukAmoks of the world. How about you come out into the real world where people don't need 18-footers to have fun? If I want to play IIDX, I'll play IIDX. With my hands. I don't want or need to play charts that many people who struggle to clear on a keyboard to enjoy myself on a machine. Are you especially aware of the demographic to which this pack caters?

I never said that the majority of the dance game players are BlueMystics or DukAmoks of the world either. I do understand that you are trying to cater to a large crowd, and I do understand that you want to have a pack that can cater to a ton of people. I've just been getting at the fact that a good idea like this can cater to more people if you would just get rid of that 13+ rule.

Also, by requiring submissions into this pack to have a Novice/Heavy, you are already properly catering to the players that you want to, the ones that just play for leisure and do not have serious gameplay in mind. This pack caters to a lot of people, but I'm basically fighting with you so that you can cater to MORE.

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

Not to mention that you seem to live in a world where ITG2 machines are plentiful, when in reality, many of us don't even have arcades within a reasonable distance.

Maybe I am a bit biased because of this--and I won't try to go on from this point because it is the truth.

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

Not pointless, just hilariously skewed.

Meh--at least you tried to listen.

I have admitted to the problems with mintmania in the past. The pack is like 2 or 3 years old at this point; yeah, there's quite a bit that I've gone back and discovered was quite terrible. Rislim and The Irony of Chaste are just two example of files of my own creation that I find lacking, and files like Tell Me A Story were submissions I should have looked at better. Go tell me that years ago, and maybe you'll see a better pack.

Touche. Many people in this thread had spoken highly of your pack, so I thought you'd at least have the skills to back it up. At least you are telling me that the only reason these are bad is due to age/lack of certain theories. They aren't totally bad, but did need some work. I do see you have talent here.

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

Both of which are joke mashups that were found to be humorous by the communities I was a part of. You probably didn't like Healing Monolith or Jack Spinnaz either. Sorry.

Didn't quite see them yet.

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

The double-step is in measure 35, and yeah, pattern choice could've been better. Go grab a time machine, and I'll fix it so we don't have this conversation.

I can't help but be a technique nazi. Most of the charts on the machine I play on have horrid double-steps and so forth that it gets agitating to see them over and over again. I was picking a fight earlier, but I'm not anymore.

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

I like your clairvoyance. Can you tell me what next week's lottery numbers will be too?

If you win, can we split the pot?

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

I did not reject any of ddr_f4n's files. I actually had a few people look at the files with me, one of which is actually well-versed in pad charts and has done quite well in SM file tournaments, another who is decent at ITG2 in the 12+ difficulty spectrum, and we were all able to agree that gigantic minefields and unnecessary 16th notes trills do not a fun file make. Maybe it does for you, but again, you are not part of a majority. ddr_f4n's files need adjustments, but they are well-constructed simfiles. I specified in the OP that I did not want artificial difficulty, and the minefields alone create exactly that.

I could have sworn you rejected a file of his. Either way, this fight is over, I was tired/angry/wanting to see more out of this project. And I still do.

(TRILLS ARE AMAZING DAMN IT)

Originally Posted by TrickMasterMint

[...] Sound good to you?

Hahaha, that felt good to let out. I haven't had a decent argument over something so petty in a while.

Hey, listen, don't take me for a bad person, haha. I just want you to open up your ideas a bit more. It's good that you are actually advertising a pad pack here, it's something that FFR doesn't see a lot, and it's also something that people don't see FFR having a talent for. =)

I'm not gonna bother you anymore (unless you do something really stupid ) :lol;, I just had nothing better to you, and a few things that you said, I didn't like.

Now, since that is out of my system, I'll try and step that song from Mountain of Faith that ddr_f4n was talking about. xD

[skyfox_]

lol.tbh, youre both being kinda bais if ya ask me, sure artificial difficulty may not be fun to you mint, but for others its what they enjoy, and halogen, if you want to do harder stuff that you actually enjoy, just do it, you both could probobly come to a conclusion if you were nicer about it>.>

i have no problem if one artist wants to put a few 18foot boss songs in, the rest of us can do easier stuff, variety right?

tl;dr no difficulty discrimination pl0x..

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by skyfox_

lol.tbh, youre both being kinda bais if ya ask me, sure artificial difficulty may not be fun to you mint, but for others its what they enjoy, and halogen, if you want to do harder stuff that you actually enjoy, just do it, you both could probobly come to a conclusion if you were nicer about it>.>

i have no problem if one artist wants to put a few 18foot boss songs in, the rest of us can do easier stuff, variety right?

tl;dr no difficulty discrimination pl0x..

I wasn't going as far as like 18 foot, lol--but I would like to see a few 14s and such.

Anyway, I'm done arguing, I don't normally do that much, and it felt good to do.

I'm gonna TRY not to push above 12/13 on anything, but if it happens, not much I can do to stop myself. =/

[TrickMasterMint]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Voyager 1970 from Imperishable Night

I love that song, but really, it would just be a stamina test/gimmick.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

This pack caters to a lot of people, but I'm basically fighting with you so that you can cater to MORE.

Which is why I said you guys could go ahead and use the Edit portion of the file for that.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Touche. Many people in this thread had spoken highly of your pack, so I thought you'd at least have the skills to back it up. At least you are telling me that the only reason these are bad is due to age/lack of certain theories. They aren't totally bad, but did need some work. I do see you have talent here.

A lot has changed over time, and really, some of us look at what we put in mintmania and just shudder. However, a lot of it still seems to be well-liked, so I guess we did something right.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

I can't help but be a technique nazi. Most of the charts on the machine I play on have horrid double-steps and so forth that it gets agitating to see them over and over again. I was picking a fight earlier, but I'm not anymore.

This is why I started the pack in the first place.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

If you win, can we split the pot?

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

I could have sworn you rejected a file of his. Either way, this fight is over, I was tired/angry/wanting to see more out of this project. And I still do.

No one will get a file flat-out rejected. Part of the purpose of this pack is to help people become better step authors. If we see issues, we will address them and send them back. Then, the authors can do what they will. I did my best to gather people from all ends of the spectrum to look at them, so we could have a balanced set of files, something that everyone can enjoy, not necessarily something to push someone to their limits. Some of us still find fun in 7-footers.

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

I'm not gonna bother you anymore (unless you do something really stupid ) :lol;, I just had nothing better to you, and a few things that you said, I didn't like.

Well, if I do something stupid, let me know.

[kommisar[os]]

pad battles

[~Zero~]

Is Dark PHEONiX a touhou artist?

[ASTRODONGS]

Just throwing this out there, but I think the reason Mint is trying to shy away from a lot of 12+s isn't because he thinks difficult = terrible, but that 99% of the dance game community can't make a good stepchart for the life of them, ESPECIALLY a difficult one. There's a difference between a "good" difficult chart and a "lol i hear fast notes 16th streamz and jumpz on every beat" difficult chart. I guess I'd compare making every chart for a song as difficult as possible (stepping whatever is the fastest part of a song at every moment) to a keyboard chart where someone literally layers EVERY noise together, with no thought put into creativity/fun/etc.

Although seeing as how he said you could do whatever you want with the Edit difficulty, I don't know why this became an issue. =/

Anyways, I should finish the Novice - Hard charts for Energy Blast or something. I swear I'll get to it. Eventually.

Originally Posted by ~Zero~

Is Dark PHEONiX a touhou artist?

I don't know if they're Touhou-only, but I do know they've done some Touhou arranges/remixes.

[ddr_f4n]

You know, I agree with Mint saying that I have over-used to mines, which I believe is a simple problem of mine as well.

Also, TC_Halogen. I stepped Love-Coloured Master Spark. I CAN NOT see it as a 14+ file. Ever. Sorry, but don't try to make it hard just because most of the community wants HARD files. We just want them to be enjoyable.

[Gundam-Dude]

The original TPP2 that Xiao started had a perfect file difficulty balance. They were generally ranging from 9s to 12s with the exception to Xiao's Lunatic denoted charts which ranged from 13s - 15s.

I even admit that although the Lunatic charts are pretty hard, they're fun and have replay value (I was Xiao's file tester/reviewer so I have all of his TPP2 charts in my possession). For example, his Wind God Girl file, which was denoted a 15 by me and him, would probably sound boring and completely pointless since it's just constant 200BPM 16th stream for a little over 2 minutes. But the challenge of simply passing it is enough to make it enjoyable and have replay value. Another example would be Xiao's Candy Gossun file which was denoted a 14 by us. Although he did call it a pad dump, it is technically correct in terms of layering and I found that it had a lot of replay value. Sure, there's a tiring 184BPM 16th run for more than 20 seconds, but overall the file lived up to its potential and still gives enough of a challenge.

Personally, an entire pack consisting of charts that only go up to 12s is pretty bland. There's absolutely no challenge to it therefore it would not appeal to a lot of players in the ITG community. But that doesn't say that the pack absolutely needs to be consisted of hard files taking up more than half of the pack size. Whatever really works better for the pack and I'd say keep a few hard charts.