varying levels of consciousness

[Lueadar]

Originally Posted by Reach

Yeah, we're just a brain.

That doesn't necessarily mean consciousness is an 'illusion' though. It just means the feeling of control we have over this consciousness is an illusion and a byproduct of the brain as well.

That's more or less what I was getting at. We "feel" our own consciousness, and we feel we're controlling it, but apart from some outside force (again, a "soul" of some sort existing outside the bounds of what is observable for us), the feeling on control would be an illusion.

That doesn't mean it isn't true, since you can't prove it isn't, but it's one hell of a leap. Definitely not the most parsimonious explanation.

It is definitely a huge leap, but I figure it has to be at least considered from a logical standpoint considering the vast amount of believers in some kind of "god" (within all intelligence ranges).

A lack of free will *could* mean there is a cause an effect sequence but that doesn't mean it's predictable. You haven't addressed who's doing the predictions, or the physical problem of observation in making predictions (i.e. changing the outcome).

A system could easily be unpredictable to the casual observer (like us) but causal in nature. The problem is that we're mere observers within a system where there is vast amounts of information we can't account for on the quantum level. Quantum mechanics, for example, is probabilistic to observers like us. That doesn't mean it's not inherently causal though, as I would assume it is (since I see no reason or evidence for why anything isn't causal)


Even then, assuming quantum mechanics is inherently probabilistic and has no causation associated with it, it doesn't give evidence for or against free will. We could still lack free will - in a universe where the future is indeterminate.

There is evidence from neuroscience to suggest we lack free will. To me, it's an obvious conclusion when you throw Cartesian dualism out the window and understand that mind = body, and structure = function. =/

Again, this is the million dollar question. If the universe, and everything in it (which would include us), is causal in nature, then we are at the mercy of the universe, and our lives are meaningless to us (though they may have meaning to the universe, whatever that may mean). We are the product of what came before us: we can be no different--every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Where we are now is just the result of an incalculable number of previous reactions. Within this view, there is no room for change. Fate is inescapable (this is starting to sound like the matrix). It's a bleak outlook (or not, depending on how you look at it). If we, humans, are robbed of choice, then who is making the choices (or made the initial choices as it were)? Is anyone? Is the universe just a meaningless heap of matter and energy--changing in a predictable and inevitable manner timelessly? No beginning, no end, no time, just change--meaningless change.

It's hard for me to agree with the above statements. I'm an atheist by definition, but I still see meaning in the universe. I see not meaningless change, but instead progress. Since the beginning of recorded time, there has been nothing but progress. Evolution from single-celled organisms to upright-walking, thinking, creatures, technology, all of it is progress. Progressing towards what? I don't know. If it was all meaningless however, I don't believe we would be here, I don't believe we COULD be here. If evolution's goal is to create more adaptable organisms, then it would seem the ultimate goal is immortality. For what purpose? So the universe can reflect on itself? Perhaps. =)

It seems to me almost as if the universe, through us, is trying to create god, rather than the other way around.