Why religion isn't under the same amount of scrutiny?

[somethingillremember]

Originally Posted by dore

I offer this question: why are we sinful? What makes our natural thought processes wrong? Why is our everyday life so terrible? It seems arbitrary to make human nature "sinful" when all that does is add fuel to stereotypical thinking such as hiding emotions and being above instinct. There is a reason why we have instincts and there is a reason why we feel these emotions, so why should it be considered wrong? Why, just because I am conscious and can consider these things are they somehow evil? Why ignore some instincts like basic sexual instincts but not others, like eating?

The whole concept of sin is arbitrary and in my opinion only was created to control people's morality. By making human nature "evil" you now have a society of people trying as hard as they can to be prim and proper while oh by the way it's sinful to not give money to your church haha now you can't afford food.

Note that the following response is not to prove the Bible, but to state what it says.

My point was not to say that Christianity is speaking of repressing emotions and tendencies, but that that is what many people think it is. These "sins" that we do are what lead us away from God. But Christianity isn't about trying not to do these things. In fact, sin isn't even really certain "things" that we do. By sinful nature, I mean the desire we have for ourselves, putting our own needs above others, just the selfish way in which we live. Although people may do certain things for other people, when put in a pressure situation, like receiving a promotion, a person would be much more joyful if they got the promotion. This is contrary to the Christian religion. The point is that our nature is to do things that benefit ourselves in some way: as humans we are contrary to doing things like afrobean said (er, quoted Jesus), loving our neighbor as ourselves. We want to love ourselves.

Galatians 5:17 says
"For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want".

Our sinful or selfish nature is conflicting with God (the Spirit being the Holy Spirit).
So since our nature (note that this is my view and I am not trying to force you to believe it) is conflicting with God's nature, we cannot conquer it without his help.

Hold on, I'm going to make a response to afrobean, (actually, that name is pretty sweet. How did you come to think of it?) probably in an edit, but I have to do some stuff first.

Okay. Here 'tis.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Again, I will say this. If something is not descriptive enough and overt in its depiction, nothing it says is truly predictive.

That, and most of that stuff follows basic archetypes. If someone says "one day there will be a tremendous battle on a hill and many will die", that could be any number of small skirmishes to full blown wars across all of human history. Take a look at some of the stuff Nostradamus "predicted"... many of his predictions can be applied to many separate situations, sometimes even providing conflicting world views.

The Daniel prophesy has A LOT of backup. If there were a prophesy that said "One day there will be a battle" then yeah, that wouldn't exactly be the greatest prophesy. But if someone prophesied "There will be a great beast that floats on the sea. None will have seen any like it before, and none thought it was destructible, yet it is made by man. But this great beast will have a defect, and when it hits a great piece of ice, it will fall under the freezing sea, and countless people riding on him will freeze and die. Stories will be told of this fall throughout the ages. People will watch it over and over again for decades and centuries afterward." If this were written in 1000 A.D., the people of that time would have a hard time figuring out what it was about, and there would surely be many different strange interpretations. But in our modern eyes, after seeing the film "Titanic" it makes a lot more sense.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Actually, I think you mean to say "All of the New Testament was written a very long time after his death, in some cases decades or more."

Er, yeah. I'm restarted sometimes. I was thinking about the gospels being written about the time before Jesus' death, not actually being written before them :P.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

And quick question, but how has "God... showed you throughout [your] life" that the story of Jesus rising from the dead is literally true? Forgive the pun, but you said it yourself- the resurrection is at the crux of Christian belief. If "God has showed you throughout your life" that the bible should be believed, then he must have personally relayed to you why Jesus's resurrection story should be believed literally. Can you please relay this to me in some way that makes logical sense?

Erm, again, I was being kind of stupid. I meant that from my perspective, it seems like there have been many times where God has helped me in my life. When I prayed to him it seemed like he helped me understand the gospel (from my point of view, I mean). And I linked two things that are not linked. Sorry about that, you're right, my life does not show Jesus' death as literal. However I do have other backup for this.

Jesus' death was a historical event. Jesus was written of by a number of witnesses, and although you may say it was only four, Luke was not an eyewitness, but put together a history from eyewitnesses, who also proclaimed that they had seen Jesus live again. Jesus' death and resurrection has to have been literal, as it truly shows that he is the son of God, to have risen on his own. Like I said before, Christianity would fall apart if Jesus never died and rose again.

1 John 1 says (not John 1)
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."

John was an eyewitness. He had seen these things himself, and was very strongly opinionated about it. In fact, Christian Nostics did arise in around 200 A.D. that said that Jesus never really died out of the belief that a God could not die, and churches had to combat that view.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

That is a VERY dangerous way to look at morality, and that sort of thing is why I have such disdain for Faith without Reason. People take the stance that "this life" doesn't matter, that they're already sinners.

I never said that this life doesn't matter (I also might be reading what you said wrong, so sorry if I am). In fact, I believe that this life matters a whole lot, and I have never heard Christians say that this life doesn't matter, and doing good things is very important. The point is that good things don't need to be done to achieve salvation. Is that what you mean? Or did you mean something else? Unless you mean being successful in this life is not important, in which case I don't think that it is.

Originally Posted by Afrobean

They may even be set in a belief that they're going to Hell regardless of how they handle the rest of their lives.

What do you mean by "they"?

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Morality need not be driven by dogmatic bull****. The idea of treating others as you would like to be treated is both the fundamental basis for morality AND a message taught by Jesus himself. Don't submit to the idea that you're a sinner and "beyond help" and you can't be "good" on your own and you need "God to change [you]". I assure you, no matter what you believe, God is not going to intervene in this world and help you in the slightest. He'll stand by and let freak accidents and diseases claim the lives of faithful servants just the same as asshole atheists or anyone else. Because that's what he does if he does exist; stand by and do nothing.

First of all, although Jesus did say many things along the lines of "Do to others as you would have them do to you" (Luke 6:31) he also said many things like "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father (God) except through me." (John 14:6) and earlier in that same passage " In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." (John 14:2-4) and " Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33). I mean, if Jesus isn't really God and didn't really die on the cross, then he is one of the most arrogant people who ever lived. Or totally crazy, and I don't think someone that crazy could come up with teachings that last thousands of years. He made references to his own death and resurrection, like in Matthew 20:17 where it says "Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!' " Jesus said a bunch of crazy stuff like that.

In my view, I am a sinner, I am beyond help, and I do need God to change me. Again, I'm not trying to force you to believe this, but it is my view that God [i]will[\I] help me throughout my life, and that I can pray to him and ask for his help. Jesus said to his disciples "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." Ephesians 6:18 says "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. Also, Jesus said "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." This seems to imply that Jesus will, in fact, help us in our lives.

I gotta go, so I can't say much more, but it says in the bible that Christians will undergo suffering, and that it is part of the Christian life. And how do you know that God doesn't help people all the time, and that it would be much, much worse without his help?

Anyway, I have to go to bed (I live in Taiwan). Talk later!