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Old 12-31-2008, 07:07 AM   #1
somethingillremember
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Default Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Very recently, I've been playing a fairly new game made on the 94-96 Marathon engine called Marathon:Eternal. The graphics are a little bit better than the original, but really that's only because they are higher resolution (you can only do so much, as the engine is limiting). Also, the challenges are kind of monotonous, and mostly involve kill these guys, flip this switch to open this door, and then kill more guys.

But there is something else about this game, something that makes this game on my top 10. You see, because this game cannot do much toward gameplay or graphics, it has to make up for it with something else. A plot. A really GOOD plot.

In fact, even the best of game plots, like Bioshock, don't come close to what this game achieves. So why can't games these days come up with some good plots? Are there games that I have not played that have good plots? Or is it just Marathon with a good plot?
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:10 AM   #2
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Because the majority of plots have been used. They've been thought up and put to use already.
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Still, reusing a good plot is better than having a crappy one and saying "well, every other plot is taken". Besides, wouldn't crappy plots be even more of copy cats?
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:45 AM   #4
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Shooters don't need plots. They compete for graphics, nothing more. A few stand out as actually having plots, but the industry has noticed that most people don't care for that and just make something up to keep you playing.

Other than BioShock and Half-Life, I haven't seen any shooters centered around plots in years. Even then, these games have ulterior motives to drive sales. BioShock had plasmids, Half-Life has the Gravity Gun and physics. And sorry, your example doesn't count considering it's so unknown that it doesn't even have its own Wikipedia page. To me, you're just using the indie vs. mainstream argument. Well, obviously. Indie games don't aim for the mainstream. The mainstream [i]doesn't[i] care about plot, so what do you think indie games are going to do?

So, until you tell me that all video game genres lack plot, this is the end of my point of view. But if you're not limiting yourself to FPSes, then prepare yourself for 1000+ word reply explaining how many ways you're wrong.
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:15 AM   #5
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Okay, okay, I know many RPG's and other games have plots. But yeah, I was mainly speaking of FPS's. I'm of the opinion that if an FPS came out with a good plot, then it might actually sell pretty well.

Also, Eternal is more cult than indie. Marathon was one of Bungie's first games, and is a HUGE inspiration to Halo. In fact, there are references to Marathon all over Halo, and although Bungie staff have claimed that Halo and Bungie aren't part of the same game, some people believe that the ending cutscene of Halo 3 ties the two together. Eternal is a fan-made game based on the original series, and it started development back in 96, got forgotten, and then started up again in 2004.
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Old 12-31-2008, 08:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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Originally Posted by somethingillremember View Post
Okay, okay, I know many RPG's and other games have plots. But yeah, I was mainly speaking of FPS's. I'm of the opinion that if an FPS came out with a good plot, then it might actually sell pretty well.
The world has proven otherwise. It's a nice idea on paper, but it doesn't work in reality. Although some people would disagree with me otherwise, I believe Halo has a decent plot. However, it's not why it's selling 8 million or so copies. Especially the newer Halo games. I haven't played those, but from what I've heard, the story is complete crap, yet it still sells close to 10 million copies. It's not unheard of to mix genres like an FPS and an RPG, but it's typically not a good idea unless it delivers well on both fronts.

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Old 12-31-2008, 04:51 PM   #7
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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Originally Posted by somethingillremember View Post
Okay, okay, I know many RPG's and other games have plots. But yeah, I was mainly speaking of FPS's. I'm of the opinion that if an FPS came out with a good plot, then it might actually sell pretty well.
...BioShock sold well. Just because you didn't like the plot doesn't mean it was a game sold on plot. And just because you don't think the plot was original doesn't mean the plot wasn't. Sure, it was basically System Shock 2 with updated graphics and a new setting, but how many people played System Shock 2? I'm betting not even a tenth of the people who played BioShock played SS2.

Quote:
Also, Eternal is more cult than indie. Marathon was one of Bungie's first games, and is a HUGE inspiration to Halo. In fact, there are references to Marathon all over Halo, and although Bungie staff have claimed that Halo and Bungie aren't part of the same game, some people believe that the ending cutscene of Halo 3 ties the two together. Eternal is a fan-made game based on the original series, and it started development back in 96, got forgotten, and then started up again in 2004.
And you're one of maybe a few thousand people who knows anything at all about it. That makes it non-mainstream. What are you getting at?

Let's look at the mainstream FPSes of this generation and why they sold well.

Call of Duty 4: Modern setting and intense multiplayer.
Call of Duty 5: Updated multiplayer from CoD4.
Resistance 1, 2: Multiplayer and interesting guns.
Unreal Tournament 3: Multiplayer.
BioShock: Story and Plasmids.
Half-Life Orange Box: Cheap, Portal, Multiplayer.
Left 4 Dead: Multiplayer.
Halo 1, 2, 3: "Story" and Multiplayer.
Crysis: Graphics.

Huh. I wonder what developers are focusing on?
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

I like to think that Kingdom Hearts was pretty original. I mean, I never saw a Square Enix/Soft and Disney combination of a game, and when I did, it looked really stupid. When I actually got the game, I was amazed. Not only was there a completely original plot, but it was done so well.
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Old 12-31-2008, 05:36 PM   #9
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Kingdom Hearts is a horrible, cliched, unimaginative game that has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

And the sequel is even worse.

I have no idea why so many fanboys love it (oh wait, cloud is in it, right), but damn, people are really blinded with rose-colored glasses on this one. The plot is ridiculously bad and the best feature of the sequel is the ability to skip all of it.

The only original thing it did was blend Disney (which sucks) with Square-Enix (which sucks more). That's not original, though, since collaborations between non-video game characters and video game characters have been going on for years. It's just the first one to use Disney.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Probably the thing that pisses me off the most is when I see You-tube comments of people saying that Tales ripped on Kingdom Hearts.

There's only one reason why I think people like Kingdom Hearts. They've played Square Enix's Final Fantasy series where the battle system was ATB. When they played Kingdom Hearts, which was also another game by Square Enix, the change in the battle system was new and refreshing to them, so they enjoyed it. Also, I've noticed a lot of my friends only like playing mainstream and popular games. As long as it has a big name, it must be good, right?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiluluk
WHEN do you think people die...?
When their heart is pierced by a bullet from a pistol...? No.
When they succumb to an incurable disease...? No.
When they drink soup made with a poisonous mushroom...? NO!!!
IT'S WHEN A PERSON IS FORGOTTEN...!!!
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:11 PM   #11
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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...BioShock sold well. Just because you didn't like the plot doesn't mean it was a game sold on plot. And just because you don't think the plot was original doesn't mean the plot wasn't. Sure, it was basically System Shock 2 with updated graphics and a new setting, but how many people played System Shock 2? I'm betting not even a tenth of the people who played BioShock played SS2.
For one thing, I never said I didn't like Bioshock's plot. In fact, I own Bioshock, and I really like the game because at least it had some good plot. In fact, it had alot of good plot, compared to the rest of the games coming out.

My point was that Eternal has a really good plot, and it made me realize what games could be doing with their plots.

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The world has proven otherwise. It's a nice idea on paper, but it doesn't work in reality. Although some people would disagree with me otherwise, I believe Halo has a decent plot. However, it's not why it's selling 8 million or so copies. Especially the newer Halo games. I haven't played those, but from what I've heard, the story is complete crap, yet it still sells close to 10 million copies. It's not unheard of to mix genres like an FPS and an RPG, but it's typically not a good idea unless it delivers well on both fronts.
Bioshock had a good plot. It sold well.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:35 PM   #12
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

So? I'm not against a good FPS with a good plot. I'm all for it. However, that's just my opinion on it and my opinion belongs to a minority group. Big game companies who strive for success don't care about my opinion too much, they cater to a larger group of people. This larger group of people are those who care about multiplayer FPS gameplay. In my group of friends, only two of us enjoys playing RPGs while the other 10-15 of us enjoys playing Halo 3 online or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Hiluluk
WHEN do you think people die...?
When their heart is pierced by a bullet from a pistol...? No.
When they succumb to an incurable disease...? No.
When they drink soup made with a poisonous mushroom...? NO!!!
IT'S WHEN A PERSON IS FORGOTTEN...!!!
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Old 01-1-2009, 07:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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For one thing, I never said I didn't like Bioshock's plot. In fact, I own Bioshock, and I really like the game because at least it had some good plot. In fact, it had alot of good plot, compared to the rest of the games coming out.

My point was that Eternal has a really good plot, and it made me realize what games could be doing with their plots.

Bioshock had a good plot. It sold well.
Again, BioShock's main selling point was its setting. #2 was the plasmids. #3 was the plot.

And for all of that, it barely managed 2.5 million. Compare that with 9 million from Halo 3, 7 million from CoD4, and 6 million from Gears. What do you think people are looking for in an FPS? Hell, BioShock barely manages to be in the top ten for shooters on the 360 in terms of sales.

Look at it from the developer's viewpoint. There are all these amazing games with great multiplayer aspects selling 5m+. There's one standout game that took the time to write a deep, engrossing plot that hasn't even sold half that. Hmmm.

And again, I'm not making any argument as to whether BioShock was good or not (for the record, it was good). You're saying "games should have good plots". The vast majority of gamers are saying "games should have good multiplayer". In the gaming world, majority rules. Always has, always will. Breakout games are high-risk, low-reward. Most breakout games get huge review scores, but low sales figures. For example: Katamari Damacy. Most gamers would agree that it's a great game. It hasn't even broken one million units in sales.
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Old 01-1-2009, 11:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

I thought the story to Half Life life was good. I thought the story to Bioshock was good although I hated the actual game. I thought the story to The Darkness was superb although the gameplay got annoying. Condemned is kinda like an FPS and I liked the story.

Although the good to bad story ratio isn't very complimentary to the FPS genre there are a few diamonds in the rough.
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Old 01-1-2009, 11:14 AM   #15
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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Again, BioShock's main selling point was its setting. #2 was the plasmids. #3 was the plot.

And for all of that, it barely managed 2.5 million. Compare that with 9 million from Halo 3, 7 million from CoD4, and 6 million from Gears. What do you think people are looking for in an FPS? Hell, BioShock barely manages to be in the top ten for shooters on the 360 in terms of sales.

Look at it from the developer's viewpoint. There are all these amazing games with great multiplayer aspects selling 5m+. There's one standout game that took the time to write a deep, engrossing plot that hasn't even sold half that. Hmmm.

And again, I'm not making any argument as to whether BioShock was good or not (for the record, it was good). You're saying "games should have good plots". The vast majority of gamers are saying "games should have good multiplayer". In the gaming world, majority rules. Always has, always will. Breakout games are high-risk, low-reward. Most breakout games get huge review scores, but low sales figures. For example: Katamari Damacy. Most gamers would agree that it's a great game. It hasn't even broken one million units in sales.
katamari damacy was relatively successful..
didn't the psp game sell a million? I thought each new title grew in sales numbers...
it was by far the best game on the gamecube, and the psp game was even better imo.


but yeah, im guilty of only buying / playing games because of multiplayer (with a few exclusions).
i.e - we bought halo2 like two and a half years ago. i played it all summer of 2006 basically, like and hour or two a day. i had all my levels over 40 by the time i quit the game, and i had never gotten past the second stage of the campaign.
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Old 01-1-2009, 12:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Yes. It's relatively successful. Any PS3 or 360 game that get 200,000 sales break even with the development costs so a game that sells a million is a success. However, it's not success on the scale of the other big games in the genre such as Halo 3 at 9 million or Gears at 6 million. I can't confirm whether or not "new" games always sell more than "older" games, but it's not like it's a guarantee that new games will always be a success. I read somewhere that very few games actually break even and even fewer become big hits on the level of a million sales.

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Originally Posted by Hiluluk
WHEN do you think people die...?
When their heart is pierced by a bullet from a pistol...? No.
When they succumb to an incurable disease...? No.
When they drink soup made with a poisonous mushroom...? NO!!!
IT'S WHEN A PERSON IS FORGOTTEN...!!!
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Old 01-1-2009, 05:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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katamari damacy was relatively successful..
didn't the psp game sell a million? I thought each new title grew in sales numbers...
it was by far the best game on the gamecube, and the psp game was even better imo.


but yeah, im guilty of only buying / playing games because of multiplayer (with a few exclusions).
i.e - we bought halo2 like two and a half years ago. i played it all summer of 2006 basically, like and hour or two a day. i had all my levels over 40 by the time i quit the game, and i had never gotten past the second stage of the campaign.
Katamari wasn't on the Gamecube. And it wasn't even remotely the best game on the PS2.

And no, even fewer of the PSP game have sold.
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Old 01-1-2009, 10:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

Look, of course I know that the industry doesn't care about plots. But I really don't think it would be that hard to come up with a plot better than what games usually have.
Think about it:

GoW: Aliens attack. Kill them.
Halo 3 and Halo 2: Aliens attack. Kill them. (actually, these two had an OK plot, but Halo had a better one)
Any war game: Nazi's/Russians/Middle Easterners attack/have a nuclear weapon. Kill them/Disarm the weapon.
Manhunt: Kill them.

Okay, so there are some with plots, like Prince of Persia's plot is okay. But the industry could do much better, without even trying that hard.

But does everyone agree with me that videogames would be more fun if they did have better plots?

(Actaully, I think people's accusations against Halo are partially wrong. The whole series together has a good plot, but it's spaced out over three (soon to be four) games. So it would have a good plot if you crunched Halo 2 and 3 into one game. Hopefully, Halo:ODST will be good.)
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Old 01-1-2009, 11:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

I see nothing wrong with that.

Plot doesn't drive a game. Gameplay drives a game. If the game is 100% plot and 0% gameplay, then it's going to be a terrible game. I think video game designers do better without worrying about an engrossing plot.

I disagree with you that plot would make FPSes better. I think gameplay is the most important thing. Far Cry, Crysis, etc. They're touted for amazing graphics. Too bad they're terrible games. The gameplay is disgustingly bad.

You've broken down the overarching plot to "kill aliens", but that's not the entire plot. I started playing Gears 2 last night, and even as someone who has never played Gears before, I found the story good enough to want to keep playing. In fact, we didn't finish and I went home and was about to go online to look up how it ends because I might not have another opportunity to play again.

PS - way to generalize everything, thus proving that you haven't played anything.

PPS - Halo isn't bad for its terrible story. It's bad for its generic and unimaginative gameplay.

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Old 01-1-2009, 11:44 PM   #20
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Default Re: Whatever happened to videogames with a PLOT?

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Kingdom Hearts is a horrible, cliched, unimaginative game that has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

And the sequel is even worse.

I have no idea why so many fanboys love it (oh wait, cloud is in it, right), but damn, people are really blinded with rose-colored glasses on this one. The plot is ridiculously bad and the best feature of the sequel is the ability to skip all of it.

The only original thing it did was blend Disney (which sucks) with Square-Enix (which sucks more). That's not original, though, since collaborations between non-video game characters and video game characters have been going on for years. It's just the first one to use Disney.
Well I'm just going to do what you did to the OP.

That is what YOU think, but others might like it

or whatever you said. I never finish reading the thread and posted this after reading up to this post.
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