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Old 09-23-2008, 10:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Originally Posted by Coolgamer View Post
And why should it be gasoline based? The more independent we are from this crutch the better. Here's a few ideas...

1. Increase Amtrack funding.
2. Promote mag-lev "bullet" train tech for passengers. This obviously works as can be seen from the Japanese business model, and is cleaner and faster then normal trains.
3. Heck, even a inner-city monorail system could help.
4. Switch to either a higher gasoline tax or a flat tax to be shared among all residents, similar to education taxes.
Flat tax doesn't make sense, it just implies a single rate tax. Higher gasoline tax would defeat the purpose of the gasoline tax. If we can't fund our infrastructure with a gasoline tax because of falling tax revenues at the moment, raising the gasoline tax would further decrease demand further decreasing... revenues.

Seriously I talked about all of this back and forth, up and down in my original argument. If you're going to try to argue against me we shouldn't be trying to make the same point.
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Old 09-23-2008, 10:45 PM   #22
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Originally Posted by Afrobean View Post
That doesn't address the fact that bicyclists are major safety hazards for everyone on the road, nor does it touch on the fact that a crash involving a walking person and a bicyclist will result in much less injury than a car hitting a bicyclist. And that's also ignoring the fact that cars may hit other things because of the bicyclist's presence, such as other cars, inanimate objects, or even pedestrians (particularly ones who are jaywalking).

Really, if there is a place with no sidewalk that would stop you from being able to ride your bicycle somewhere, that's not a good excuse to endanger everyone on the road by your mere presence. Rather than telling everyone else that they need to deal with you, you should be dealing with the system-- ride public transit, drive yourself, or get involved in local government and work to get sidewalk added where needed. Don't demand the world deals with your choices, make your choices based on what the world has to say on the matter.
Bicyclists are far and wide a safety hazard for themselves and pretty much nothing else in the macro view. Sure you can make an isolated case specific-to-general argument why they're unsafe to everyone, but they aren't. Just themselves. It's akin to not wearing a seatbelt. Should we enforce mandatory seatbelt laws? If no, then your answer should be the same as "should we allow bicyclists?" There's other contingents, but it really is personal safety or personal choice, and in that case should the government ban things that are unsafe to our person and isolated to that?
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Old 09-23-2008, 10:56 PM   #23
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Originally Posted by Vendetta21 View Post
Bicyclists are far and wide a safety hazard for themselves and pretty much nothing else in the macro view. Sure you can make an isolated case specific-to-general argument why they're unsafe to everyone, but they aren't. Just themselves. It's akin to not wearing a seatbelt. Should we enforce mandatory seatbelt laws? If no, then your answer should be the same as "should we allow bicyclists?" There's other contingents, but it really is personal safety or personal choice, and in that case should the government ban things that are unsafe to our person and isolated to that?
Me wearing my seatbelt or not has no effect on anyone else.

A bicyclist doing 20 MPH slower than all others has an effect on any driver that comes across them, whether it be as simple as merely requiring additional alertness, or if the driver has to change lanes to pass them (to say nothing of roads with only one lane going each way). This is especially notable in the case of a careless bicyclist, but then again, I'd say pretty much any bicyclist on a road with motor vehicles is at least a little careless for choosing such a dangerous method.
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Old 09-23-2008, 11:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Originally Posted by Afrobean View Post
Me wearing my seatbelt or not has no effect on anyone else.

A bicyclist doing 20 MPH slower than all others has an effect on any driver that comes across them, whether it be as simple as merely requiring additional alertness, or if the driver has to change lanes to pass them (to say nothing of roads with only one lane going each way). This is especially notable in the case of a careless bicyclist, but then again, I'd say pretty much any bicyclist on a road with motor vehicles is at least a little careless for choosing such a dangerous method.
Going slower is less of a safety hazard because it is less likely for you to get into an accident when you are going slower. Their limited visibility is something that is also true of motorcycles. We aren't talking about bicyclists imposing any safety hazards to you, but rather you imposing to them. A car is a pretty dangerous vehicle to others, a bicycle is not. Trying to argue traffic congestion as a cause for dangerous accidents is counterintuitive, traffic congestion may happen to cause accidents of a smaller nature, but those accidents are LESS dangerous due to lower speeds. We see dangerous accidents in areas where driving systems are poorly designed and roads have poor law enforcement. Having to slow down for a bike means that at max you are going 25 mph, and if you go around them with poor judgment about 27-30, and you have visibility past the biker since they don't have a large amount of horizontal and vertical surface space compared to a car. I'm going to trudge into inductive fallacy land and guess that your argument is entirely theoretical and has no realistic basis.
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Old 09-24-2008, 09:22 AM   #25
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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A car is a pretty dangerous vehicle to others, a bicycle is not.
What do roads exist for: cars or bicycles?

If there was a world without bicycles would roads exist? Would they be the same as they are now? Conversely, if there was a world without cars would roads exist? Would they be the same as they are now?

Think about it. The world is for motorists, bicyclists are just living in it. And the minority with special requirements shouldn't be allowed to force unreasonable rules on others. But then again, I suppose that's my own stance on the matter and not necessarily the stance of all; just look at all the wacky laws that exist for handicap folks... some of them are fine and dandy but others aren't as reasonable.

And an accident involving a car is potentially fatal even at relatively low speeds. The folks in the car have higher survivability at these lower speeds, but pedestrians and such getting hit by these "low speed" collisions... they're still getting pounded by forces far outstretching anything they could impart on themselves, even if the car is doing "only" 25 MPH. Are you really suggesting that a bicyclist hitting a pedestrian isn't a better choice than a motorist hitting a bicyclist?
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:51 PM   #26
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

I like the taxation idea mentioned, at least in its fairness towards how it would tax. I don't currently feel like I'm being taxed unfairly though, and I'm not really one to care greatly about that.

My only motorized accident on a bicycle was when I was, guess what, on a sidewalk. I did not like driving on that particular road I was on because it was too busy for my liking, without a large enough shoulder. Someone was coming out of a parking lot for the mall and didn't see me on the sidewalk. They hit me and I rolled on the front of the car because I couldn't stop in time. I've almost hit cyclists on the sidewalk, in the exact same way that I was hit, while driving a car because I had to drive over the sidewalk in order to see the traffic. When I'm on a bike, I feel safer on the road than on the sidewalk, because drivers pay attention to what's on the road, but not what's on the sidewalk.
As an aside, I don't bike anywhere these days because every single one of my bikes, no matter how ****ty they are, have been stolen. I feel like parking a bike anywhere on the street is basically like asking someone else to take it. And these aren't high crime cities I'm talking about either.
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:08 PM   #27
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

Sry about the double post.

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Originally Posted by Afrobean View Post
What do roads exist for: cars or bicycles?
Think about it. The world is for motorists, bicyclists are just living in it. And the minority with special requirements shouldn't be allowed to force unreasonable rules on others.
There are cities in the world where cyclists have more control than motorists. If the number of cyclists in a major city increases enough, then all this minority stuff is meaningless. I know I know, this is an 'if' case, but we're currently preventing people from having a safe place to cycle. This is just not right, especially seeing how important being environmentally friendly is right now. Your argument is basically "don't change the status quo because it's a nuisance to do so." North America's dependency on cars is pretty sad, and anything to help us not have to pump toxins into the air and not have to pave over the world as traffic increases, should be supported.

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Are you really suggesting that a bicyclist hitting a pedestrian isn't a better choice than a motorist hitting a bicyclist?
The cyclist on the road puts themselves in danger, that's the difference. There is, IMO, very little weight to arguments which say that they put others in danger too, like that they might cause 2 other cars to collide trying to avoid the cyclist.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:48 AM   #28
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

I absolutely despise urban cyclists.

They act like they own the road although they are dealing with powerful electrical moving vehicles that are capable of killing human beings in a moment. But they do dumbass things all the time that are just asking for them to get run over.

Although unrelated to the whole driving with cars thing, one time I was walking with my friend and a biker ran into his leg. It was more of just a scrape, but my friend was bleeding and it was a pretty long wound. It wasn't deep, but the guy didn't even stop and come back.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone here, and I'm sure there are bicyclers who are smart (though I've never seen one), but I wish they would get off the road, and if I hear on the news that one dies in an accident from a car, I'll just assume it's the cycler's fault.
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Old 09-30-2008, 08:43 AM   #29
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Originally Posted by Cavernio View Post
North America's dependency on cars is pretty sad, and anything to help us not have to pump toxins into the air and not have to pave over the world as traffic increases, should be supported.
Even without environmentally damaging methods, the basic concept of large personal transport is a requirement of modern life. I can't ride a bicycle 10 miles to work every night, and 10 miles home every morning. Even if I was willing to commit the extra time it would take, I'd be physically incapable of riding home due to exhaustion. And let's say I want to go up to Best Buy and buy a 42 inch TV. Should I take that on the bus with me or try strapping it onto my bike?

So yes, getting rid of things that hurt the environment is a good idea, but the method of doing so isn't "stop driving cars and ride bikes instead". The solution is "make cars not spew terrible **** into the atmosphere". And they're working on that. They're transitioning into cars that use less gasoline, and with time, cars will be able to fully powered by electricity or potentially even hydrogen. They get an effective hydrogen solution and even freight transport can be running on a clean fuel, even across distances that electricity can't feasibly carry.
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Old 09-30-2008, 08:46 AM   #30
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

You people should come to Europe lol. In nearly every big city in the Low Countries, bikes are the best way for transportation. Riding to various places is superior to using a car in nearly every way possible.

It's your fault that initially you didn't give enough attention to bikes in the first place. If you had you wouldn't be complaining about infrastructure problems now. (by 'your' I mean America )
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:01 AM   #31
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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You people should come to Europe lol. In nearly every big city in the Low Countries, bikes are the best way for transportation. Riding to various places is superior to using a car in nearly every way possible.

It's your fault that initially you didn't give enough attention to bikes in the first place. If you had you wouldn't be complaining about infrastructure problems now. (by 'your' I mean America )
You act like somehow europeans had the forethought to design cities based for bicycle transport. Your cities are older than American cities by several hundred years and based upon slower modes of transportation such as walking. With narrow winding streets, few parking spaces and buildings made of materials that car exhaust would decimate a vehicle isn't great for transportation.

In America we used modernized infrastructure and urban layouts to allow for more transport. In the older east coast cities we've adapted our old European style paths to fit the automobile (to varying results) and in west coast and midwest cities they were actually designed around the car. Namely because when those cities were being built no one could imagine the negative impacts vehicles would have on our environment and the dependent relationship they put the US in with foreign oil.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

Instead of creating bike paths, how about fixing up and widening sidewalks to make them good for bike riders? Cars are just so much more efficient than bikes in every single way save environmental harm, and cities really need as much road space as possible. Data from Houston, Texas shows that the more roads that are build, the less congestion there is; when they stopped building that many roads, congestion increased.

Cavernio's claim that America's dependence on cars is "pretty sad" is not well thought out. Cars are faster, go farther distances, transport more people and luggage, and are less physically exhausting than bikes. Perhaps his views as an environmentalist is skewing his opinion on what is otherwise a no-brainer: cars are better.

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I feel like parking a bike anywhere on the street is basically like asking someone else to take it. And these aren't high crime cities I'm talking about either.
Lock it up.
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Old 09-30-2008, 02:40 PM   #33
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Angry Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Instead of creating bike paths, how about fixing up and widening sidewalks to make them good for bike riders?
My sentiments exactly, sidewalks in my area suck donkey dick. They were made over 20 years ago and still haven't been re-paved, and there are god damn telephone poles sticking out of the ground on some of them. It makes it impossible to ride a bike safely with the road right next to you, because god knows if you take a spill, you'll get run over by a 95 year old grannie.

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Lock it up.
If you're going to do that, be sure to buy a high quality combination lock. I had what i thought was a good lock, until my bike got jacked. FROM COLLEGE. It was a key lock, and I'm assuming they picked it, because the lock was gone along with the bike.
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Old 09-30-2008, 03:08 PM   #34
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Instead of creating bike paths, how about fixing up and widening sidewalks to make them good for bike riders?
There's an intrinsic issue with this, namely that the current laws about bikes treat them as vehicles, and until they become formally reclassified as being more pedestrian than vehicle, they're going to have to basically be kept more on the road.
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Old 09-30-2008, 08:53 PM   #35
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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I absolutely despise urban cyclists.

They act like they own the road although they are dealing with powerful electrical moving vehicles that are capable of killing human beings in a moment. But they do dumbass things all the time that are just asking for them to get run over.

Although unrelated to the whole driving with cars thing, one time I was walking with my friend and a biker ran into his leg. It was more of just a scrape, but my friend was bleeding and it was a pretty long wound. It wasn't deep, but the guy didn't even stop and come back.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone here, and I'm sure there are bicyclers who are smart (though I've never seen one), but I wish they would get off the road, and if I hear on the news that one dies in an accident from a car, I'll just assume it's the cycler's fault.
Mentalities like this are why I happen to despise motorists. They act like they own the road although they are dealing with powerful electrical moving vehicles that are capable of killing human beings in a moment. But they do dumbass things all the time that are just asking for them to get hurt or hurt others.

One time, a friend of mine was walking and a motorist ran into his upper torso. The guy didn't even stop and come back. He died, by the way. No offense to anyone here, but if someone gets into a car accident, I'll just assume it was the drivers fault.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:00 PM   #36
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Originally Posted by Coolgamer View Post
Mentalities like this are why I happen to despise motorists. They act like they own the road although they are dealing with powerful electrical moving vehicles that are capable of killing human beings in a moment. But they do dumbass things all the time that are just asking for them to get hurt or hurt others.

One time, a friend of mine was walking and a motorist ran into his upper torso. The guy didn't even stop and come back. He died, by the way. No offense to anyone here, but if someone gets into a car accident, I'll just assume it was the drivers fault.
Right, so no one should be allowed on the roads.

Except that people in cars are more important than people on bicycles. Productivity that drives the infrastructure of the world is directly related to how effectively people can move themselves and cargo large distances.

Basically, both sides have ticks against them and are equally unworthy of the roads, but the world only relies on one of them to keep spinning.
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:06 PM   #37
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Right, so no one should be allowed on the roads.

Except that people in cars are more important than people on bicycles. Productivity that drives the infrastructure of the world is directly related to how effectively people can move themselves and cargo large distances.

Basically, both sides have ticks against them and are equally unworthy of the roads, but the world only relies on one of them to keep spinning.

Your logic is faulty. Bikes have just as much of a valid place in our transit system as do cars. Perhaps if less people on cars treated all bikers like pricks then we could all just get along. We follow the same traffic laws that you do, and we have a legal right to the road. Can't we all just get along?
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:22 PM   #38
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Your logic is faulty. Bikes have just as much of a valid place in our transit system as do cars. Perhaps if less people on cars treated all bikers like pricks then we could all just get along. We follow the same traffic laws that you do, and we have a legal right to the road. Can't we all just get along?
Do people transport goods on bicycles? Do people use bicycles to commute to work? Do people use bicycles to go to the store and to move possessions? Of those people who do use bicycles for these purposes, how do their numbers compare to those who do not, particularly as far as transporting freight and commuting to work?

Imagine that tomorrow you wake up all cars in the world have vanished. How would the world be different?

Now imagine that tomorrow you wake up and all bicycles in the world have vanished. How would the world be different?

Seriously consider these questions, then tell me again that bicyclists are as important as motorists.

EDIT: by the way, I just realized the problem with what you said. You basically said "You're wrong," and didn't use any supportive evidence.

I have the basic fact that the world only functions thanks to motor vehicles. Where is your supportive evidence stating that bicycles are so important that they deserve massive upheaval of the status quo?
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Old 10-1-2008, 01:14 AM   #39
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Do people transport goods on bicycles? Do people use bicycles to commute to work? Do people use bicycles to go to the store and to move possessions? Of those people who do use bicycles for these purposes, how do their numbers compare to those who do not, particularly as far as transporting freight and commuting to work?

Imagine that tomorrow you wake up all cars in the world have vanished. How would the world be different?

Now imagine that tomorrow you wake up and all bicycles in the world have vanished. How would the world be different?

Seriously consider these questions, then tell me again that bicyclists are as important as motorists.

EDIT: by the way, I just realized the problem with what you said. You basically said "You're wrong," and didn't use any supportive evidence.

I have the basic fact that the world only functions thanks to motor vehicles. Where is your supportive evidence stating that bicycles are so important that they deserve massive upheaval of the status quo?
Whether or not cars are more important than bicycles is irrelevant. The fact is that it's an alternative method of transport that is environment friendly, cost effective and health beneficial. It's more of a personal luxury than a world commodity. But just because they don't necessarily contribute as much to our society as cars, that doesn't mean they are any less road worthy. They're classified as vehicles and are deemed safer on roads than on sidewalks (I hope this sentence doesn't confuse you as I don't want you taking this out of context).
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Old 10-1-2008, 01:23 AM   #40
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Default Re: Urban cyclists, and what to do about them.

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Mentalities like this are why I happen to despise motorists. They act like they own the road although they are dealing with powerful electrical moving vehicles that are capable of killing human beings in a moment. But they do dumbass things all the time that are just asking for them to get hurt or hurt others.

One time, a friend of mine was walking and a motorist ran into his upper torso. The guy didn't even stop and come back. He died, by the way. No offense to anyone here, but if someone gets into a car accident, I'll just assume it was the drivers fault.
They should own the road because honestly, cars were what the roads were basically made for. There are DEFINITELY MANY MANY MANY dumbass drivers out there who do careless things from drinking while driving to just not paying any attention, but my point is that bikers are sharing the roads with large powerful vehicles which just shouldn't happen. They should stay confined to the sidewalks.
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