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Old 11-17-2004, 12:07 PM   #41
blahblah18
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weak , I"m ranked 13th and I turned down 4th 9th and 11th.... oh well
The difference between mwerp's args and aedak's is that mwerp at least argued a side, he just refused to ever listen to anotehr side...
Aedak argues whatever he can find to argue for the sake of arguing.,.. if I could I would lock this threak so quick and be like
"lock'd biotches, take it out back if you want to fight"
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Old 11-17-2004, 12:30 PM   #42
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I think I give up, also, but I have a few last words..

First: You don't just choose to get rid of cancer. YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE TO GET RID OF CANCER, OR IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Once again, I realize that making that conscious choice does not always yield positive results, but a conscious choice MUST be made before anything can be done. You either choose to seek treatment, or you choose to give up.

Second: People with diseases are NOT helpless. Whether it be physical or psychological, there is some form of relief for every illness out there. While there may not be surefire CURES, there are treatments. There is medication, support groups, counseling, you name it. Addiction is a mental illness, in that it affects a person's psychological wellbeing, whether from the action the addiction causes, or from withdrawal effects.

BUT, Aedak, if you feel that diseased means helpless, I can only say that I hope you never get cancer.
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Old 11-17-2004, 02:39 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasselfoot
aedak = mwerp incarnate
HAHA! It's funny because it's so true!

So many ridiculous points, so many holes in logic, so many digressions from point to point, so many disregarded points... I could make a huge post, but why should I? He'd just ignore it. Plus, I'd rather let this thread die and not encourage him. Everyone else has some shred of reason. I especially like how he calls himself right when the only person he could ever convince is himself.

Oh, and I just wanted to say that that college business got way out of hand. It was just a simple comment, nothing more...

--Guido
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:15 PM   #44
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Wow, a flame war. Isn't that another warning?

Now, let's see things from your perspective, which I missed once more. For that, I feel stupid. I must say, you do have a very good point. It's almost like trying to explain why burning dollars is wrong. There's something that you feel wrong about, but the rest of it seems just right.

I think I'll start by analyzing your thoughts on behavior. Incentives matter: it's the first rule of economics and it applies to this as well. Yes, beginning the habit of substance abuse is a choice. Continuing to feed the addiction is a choice. Treating the addiction is a choice. I agree with you that for the most part, this is a behavior. I wouldn't say it's very fair to claim it's all choice, though. A huge incentive is involved. The incentive of withdrawl symptoms. I'm sure that anyone who has tried to break an addiction knows the power of this incentive, I myself feel it. It's horrid. The ill effects on any sort of attempted quitter are astounding. Sometimes they can leave the abuser temporarily crippled. Avoiding conditions like this is a huge incentive to continue the abuse. I'm sure there are many more involved, but this is the largest obstacle I can see in my own addiction.

That's really the one huge flaw in your arguement. That and the whole physiological problem part. Other than that, it makes lots of sense.

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:54 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stretchypanda
I think I give up, also, but I have a few last words..

First: You don't just choose to get rid of cancer. YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE TO GET RID OF CANCER, OR IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Once again, I realize that making that conscious choice does not always yield positive results, but a conscious choice MUST be made before anything can be done. You either choose to seek treatment, or you choose to give up.
This will be my last reply here, promise.. =\

First of all, this debate is not about cancer. We are not talking about treatment of cancer; just as we are not talking about choosing not to have cancer. You are completely misunderstanding the whole argument here panda. This is about choosing to stop feeding an addiction, to quit. Cancer is not an addiction, as I said before... you cannot compare the two in this sense. The only reason I brought up cancer, was to give an example of a disease that you cannot get rid of with will power. Ok? I hope that settles it.

Quote:
Second: People with diseases are NOT helpless. Whether it be physical or psychological, there is some form of relief for every illness out there. While there may not be surefire CURES, there are treatments. There is medication, support groups, counseling, you name it. Addiction is a mental illness, in that it affects a person's psychological wellbeing, whether from the action the addiction causes, or from withdrawal effects.
Again, they are helpless in the sense that they cannot will away their disease. You can use your will to stop feeding an addiction.

To everyone: I'm sorry you are all getting bent out of shape because you can't understand (except The_Q).

Guido: no offense, but I answer all points thoroughly and make long posts to clarify every topic. There are no ridiculous points or holes in logic, only you not understanding, plain and simple.

The_Q: I appreciate you not joining in on the immature bashing that Tassel and the others are so good at doing.
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Old 11-17-2004, 08:53 PM   #46
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i wasn't bashing, just joking around and saying the thread shoudl be locked...
Q hit the important part of your post on the nose here, although he makes everything into an economists perspective this is much more a psychologist's perspective, and you have to look at the idea of positive punishment vs positive reinforcement, which is whats happeneingm, i'll psot more later
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Old 11-17-2004, 10:52 PM   #47
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It's Critical THINKING not Critical FLAMERS. Any issues I have with the arguement stay in the arguement. Doing anything personally is just...not professional.

I'm rather upset with you guys. Even you, Aedak. You did it too.
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Old 11-18-2004, 11:20 AM   #48
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Rofl, you make a good point Q. It does seem as though this is no longer a duscussion as much as it is a contest.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:35 AM   #49
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what if your brainwashed and you make an action is that free will what you just did or determinism or determined w/e it is
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:22 PM   #50
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It's funny how Aedek completely disregarded Guido's posts, because Guido was dead-on.

I think Aedek is confusing the state of addiction with the act of inflicting oneself with the disease. Getting addicted to something is a choice, not a disease - I can choose to take up alcohol or to not take up alcohol. However, the state of addiction is a disease in and of itself. It's no longer your conscious decision to want what you're addicted to, like nicotene or caffiene or what-have-you - your body requires it, and your consciousness doesn't have a say in the matter.

Note that I'm only saying the state of addiction is a disease; fulfilling that addiction is a choice. Just because someone is addicted to alcohol doesn't mean they can't not drink it.
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Old 11-19-2004, 03:12 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buttonkiller
what if your brainwashed and you make an action is that free will what you just did or determinism or determined w/e it is
I don't understand why you posted here buttonkiller.

Kilga, I've made all my points very clear. This discussion is over.

By the way guys, I've read some of mwerp's posts. This guy is much more of an arrogant asshole than me.. though I am one it is true. This guy is even more full of himself though, by a long shot.
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Old 11-22-2004, 03:50 AM   #52
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the 'destiny' factor has always been thought of throughout the centuries... but, there's the rape/abortion that really throws both sides out of whack.

example:

the girl you accidently get pregnent because you were stupid, she has two choices, abort, or raise it, based on today's standards.

let's say she aborts it. What makes life really interesting, is that she could've aborted a bum, or she could've aborted this kid's son's daughter's daughter's daughter, who would be the first woman president of the united states. Which will forever make you wonder, if you hear about a 3 year old death, if they could've been somewhat more....

~signed, Neo
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Old 11-22-2004, 08:42 AM   #53
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All this talk about "could have." I don't think it makes any difference unless it does happen. What if's don't matter at all in this world because once something happens it's done.. not worth wondering "what if?".
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Old 11-23-2004, 03:26 PM   #54
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ever watched the terminator saga? the 'could have' kinda is important then, isnt it? probably not a good example, but, the 'could have' plays a key role, because the son, of a diner working low income woman, happens to be the one who 'saves us all' in the robot war. consider rethinking Aedak. it kinda takes an imagination, but, i think you'll see
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Old 11-24-2004, 08:04 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViVre
ever watched the terminator saga? the 'could have' kinda is important then, isnt it? probably not a good example, but, the 'could have' plays a key role, because the son, of a diner working low income woman, happens to be the one who 'saves us all' in the robot war. consider rethinking Aedak. it kinda takes an imagination, but, i think you'll see
I'm sorry, but that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You're telling me to drop my beliefs because someday we might have to fight robots... laughable...

There are a few reasons this doesn't change my mind.

First of all, this is a movie series. Movies aren't real, they're created by people with great imaginations. Many times these people aren't the brightest either, and when you review a movie (in your own head) you see the fatal flaws and errors. That's one problem with being an intellectual, you tend to overanalyze things too much and sometimes it takes you away from the experience of the movie. =/

Secondly, time travel isn't possible, so the 'what if' doesn't matter. What's done is done.

Thirdly, if by some chance we do create giant killer robots someday, it's probably not going to be within my lifetime.
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Old 11-24-2004, 12:07 PM   #56
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So 2 idiots walk into a forum and...
Damn I forgot the punchline
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Old 11-24-2004, 10:38 PM   #57
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Could happen is not will happen. There is no reason to prepare for giant robot wars in the near future just because it can happen. It's just too unlikely.

Back on topic: Wait, there is none anymore. We have cleared up that although addiction is a disease, it is choice that brings your there, and is therefore influenced by behavior (although the disease controls the behavior very well). Although this is good to know, we've known it for a while. Why not just let the topic get locked and move along?

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