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View Poll Results: Are there absolute morals?
No, there are no absolute morals, everything is subjective. 10 62.50%
Some things are absolute, others are subjective. 4 25.00%
Yes, there are absolute morals. 2 12.50%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-9-2004, 10:01 PM   #21
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But society dictates that murder, rape, etc. are bad, so someone who derives pleasure from those things isn't exactly being affected by that imposition.
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Old 11-9-2004, 10:05 PM   #22
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Hence why I offered psychological problems and brainwashing as possible explanations, too.
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Old 11-9-2004, 10:08 PM   #23
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While they are possible solutions, they aren't the only solutions, as you made them out to be.

Getting back to Hitler, we just got to Nazi Germany in my German History class, and one of the things we learned was that when he had a listen at each party's standpoint about what to do about the country, he agreed with party that essentially believed "Jews are bad, mmmkay?". Would you call this brainwashing or making one's own decisions based on what one has been presented?
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I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds.
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Old 11-9-2004, 10:11 PM   #24
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Brainwashing.
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Old 11-9-2004, 10:12 PM   #25
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...

And The Q wonders why I don't post here more.
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I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:31 AM   #26
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If you are trying to use the case of nazi germany as a place where murder was accepted, from my point of view that is an innacurate example. Most germans went along with it not because they agreed, but because they feared the consequences of their rejection. a book called "Ordinary Men" is about a group of german citizens who are inducted into the army and become an execution squad. Initially, they are disgusted, they can't believe this is happening, and many won't go along with it. But over time, they all become "brainwashed" into liking what they do. However, after the war most of them agree what they did is wrong, and they don't understand even themselves why they did it.

Another great example brought to us by psychology is the milgram obedience study. Look it up, it is about obedience, and what seemingly normal people will do under the duress of authority. It showed that "normal" people would do things that endanger and harm someone they don't even know simply because an authority figure asks them to. These are both examples of reasons for people going against absolute morals and doing things most consider terrible.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:58 AM   #27
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I was using Nazi Germany as an example because Hitler believed it was right. The rest of the population becomes moot at that point. It doesn't take several million counterexamples to prove a theory wrong, it only takes one.

I just kinda threw them on because I figured at least one agreed with his policies - Hitler was most certainly not alone in Anti-Semitism, and he was not the origin of it either.
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I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:17 AM   #28
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Unless you believe in God, or a God, there is no such thing as an absolute set of morals, because unless there is a supreme being, there is no one besides fellow man to make the rules. Only if God or a God exists can absolute morals exist. Without the presence of a superior being, every human can make his own rules, because every human is, logically, equal.

I believe that in every situation, there is one absolute truth. It's just that the truth is not always the same for every situation. For example, let's say stealing is wrong, but what if someone pickpockets your wallet and runs off with it? Would it be wrong to steal it back because "absolute morals" say it is wrong to steal? No, I would say that in this situation, the absolute moral would make it acceptable to take back your wallet. However, is it right to murder this man who stole your wallet? No, it is not.

Since I believe in God, I guess believing in absolute morals is easy for me - but let's not turn this into a religious debate huh?
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Old 11-10-2004, 03:24 AM   #29
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Holy shit, reading what Kilga has been saying in response to everything so far has been great. Genius responses. He is so right in my mind.
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Old 11-10-2004, 08:23 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgamayan
...

And The Q wonders why I don't post here more.
Ask a question, get an answer.
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Old 11-11-2004, 04:07 AM   #31
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Yeah exactly

See there are two solutions:

1. There is no God and every man is equal, so there is no such thing as absolute morals. Since every man is logically equal, every man can choose his own set of morals because there is no one to tell him what is right and wrong besides himself

2. God does exist and he makes the rules so whatever he says goes. This applies to religious people

So basically you're either atheistic/agnostic/whatever and you don't believe in absolute morals or you're religious and you do. If you're an atheist and you DO believe absolute morals exist, then you're confused. I've studied this stuff before and the philosophy of an absolute set of morals is nothing new to me. I could talk about this all day haha
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Old 11-11-2004, 10:27 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omgwtfToph
Yeah exactly

See there are two solutions:

1. There is no God and every man is equal, so there is no such thing as absolute morals. Since every man is logically equal, every man can choose his own set of morals because there is no one to tell him what is right and wrong besides himself

2. God does exist and he makes the rules so whatever he says goes. This applies to religious people

So basically you're either atheistic/agnostic/whatever and you don't believe in absolute morals or you're religious and you do. If you're an atheist and you DO believe absolute morals exist, then you're confused. I've studied this stuff before and the philosophy of an absolute set of morals is nothing new to me. I could talk about this all day haha
These are good points, if anyone is familiar with Sartre, a famous French Atheistic Existentialist philosopher, he touches on these issues quite frequently.

Strip away God and the "morals" he has given Christians, and we are all still basically the same (Christians and Atheists) with our own humanity (our morals as human beings would not change simply because "God was dead"). We will still have our own set of morals, but this does not imply that "absolute" morals exist; as when you use the word absolute it can be thrown out the window because nothing is absolute... all is relative and subjective... since we are all humans, there is no objective view, all we have is each other.

The only thing that could possibly fit into the "Absolute Morals" category would be evolutionary morals and ethics... which is quite interesting.. give it a read:

http://www.ditext.com/broad/huxley.html

and also:

http://bus.utk.edu/stat/mee/books/quest/q2.html
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Old 11-11-2004, 10:32 AM   #33
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God/religion/whatever aside...

Is it fair to say that there are underlying threads throughout humanity of what is right and what is wrong? Is there a "best fit line?"

Obviously there will be wackos in every test group. Statistically, it has to happen. There are even people who believe the earth is flat and we didn't go to the moon, regardless of the evidence for both these points (if you are one of these people, we can talk in another thread--not here).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when it comes to the issue of absolutes in morality, you have to look at humanity as a whole. Hitler and random isolated groups of people whose morality is opposite that of the vast majority of humanity are not "permissible evidence."

Suppose there was originaly one standard set of values and isolated groups, over time, corrupted them. Just my thoughts

Signing off from the middle of the cornfield that is Ohio,

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Old 11-11-2004, 10:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtt7
There are even people who believe... we didn't go to the moon, regardless of the evidence for both these points (if you are one of these people, we can talk in another thread--not here).
I'm one of those people.. =\
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Old 11-11-2004, 10:36 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omgwtfToph
So basically you're either atheistic/agnostic/whatever and you don't believe in absolute morals or you're religious and you do. If you're an atheist and you DO believe absolute morals exist, then you're confused.
Not necessarily. Plenty of atheists have morality, so right and wrong is not restricted to the field of religion. An atheist could believe that humans are innately born with a general understanding of what is right and wrong, and society shapes and sometimes warps that. If this is so, then "absolute morals" could simply be what is natural for humans to believe is right and wrong.
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Old 11-11-2004, 10:44 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chardish
Quote:
Originally Posted by omgwtfToph
So basically you're either atheistic/agnostic/whatever and you don't believe in absolute morals or you're religious and you do. If you're an atheist and you DO believe absolute morals exist, then you're confused.
Not necessarily. Plenty of atheists have morality, so right and wrong is not restricted to the field of religion. An atheist could believe that humans are innately born with a general understanding of what is right and wrong, and society shapes and sometimes warps that. If this is so, then "absolute morals" could simply be what is natural for humans to believe is right and wrong.
I don't believe we're born with innate ideas of right and wrong, just the opposite. I think it is completely dependent on the upbringing and collective experiences in life as a human being that shape who you are as well as your personal morals and ethics. Someone with a completely different upbringing... maybe raised by wolves let's say, could have completely different standards for everything (I understand this is the most extreme example but understand the point).

I guess you could argue that somehow a baby is born with the biological knowledge of what is right and wrong, but since there is no way to test that it is impossible to know. (Unless some one here remembers when they were and infant before their morals were corrupted by their parents... :P)

You gave the example of cheating, but I think only the definition implies that it is wrong (but only if you perceive that to be wrong!), not our innate feelings of it. Let's say for example you grow up having been told cheating (or deception to profit yourself) is a good thing and you should be rewarded when you do such things. You're going to grow up believing this is not wrong but right! This differs from the idea that repetitive cheating can shape or change your morals, but I hope you see my point.

I don't want to turn this into a religious debate as mentioned on page 2, however I think all of the morals mentioned in the Bible or Commandments are either outdated, can be easily contested, or are still used widely today. Prime example: Thou shalt not kill. This is an obvious moral, but is it absolute? Not necessarily... Unless the morals are universally true, I think it is impossible for them to be viewed as Absolute. You are going to find disagreement somewhere, and that is all that is necessary to disprove it, by using it's own definition against itself.
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Old 11-11-2004, 12:27 PM   #37
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I wanted to use cheating as an example because cheating is something that most people consider wrong but it's not something unforgivably despicable like murder or torture. I think that people naturally abhor those. Like you said, it would take experimenting to find out.

The only problem is that lesser wrongdoings (lying, cheating, theft, etc.) are products of civilization. So in order to teach a kid raised by wolves what they were you would have to civilize him, thus contaminating the experiment results.

A completely unscientific approach to this would be the story of Gilgamesh after he hires the harlot to turn Enkidu from an animal into a man. Gilgamesh kind of drags him along on all these killing adventures and Enkidu is naturally opposed to it.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:45 PM   #38
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In my opinion, the only absolutely immoral thing is to fail. If you suceed in whatever your goal is, you control thought and therefore people's perceptions. If you fail, you are rediculed and considered evil. "History is determined by the winners."
Plus, Chardish's absolutely evil things can sometimes be pitted against each other. What do you do when a women will die except if she has an abortion? Either you kill her or the baby. Therefore, since one of these evils is to be chosen here, it is not absolute.
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:19 PM   #39
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eyespewgayfier lol
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Old 11-16-2004, 06:41 AM   #40
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Quote:
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eyespewgayfier lol
What happend to Boris? Did someone feed him a retard cookie?
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