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Old 02-28-2008, 09:09 AM   #21
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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'm rambling a bit here but what I'm trying to say is that it's impossible for humans to be stopped from reproducing, especially if you use only legislation. People will do it anyways.
I don't think anyone has tried, but I'm nearly positive a reversible form of birth control could be done on all females to prevent them from reproducing until that process is reversed. So uh, certainly not impossible, though I agree that it is human nature to reproduce. However, most people treat it like a right, and some abuse that right irresponsibly with severe consequences, which is something that bothers me greatly.

It's pretty evident humans can't continue to reproduce forever. An apocalyptic event would be terrible way to go about fixing our problem temporarily, but I suppose if you scroll far enough into the future it's inevitable in some form. The earth contains a limited amount of resources, as does the universe. The human race will perish eventually, consequently, likely in a very short time period. We've already outgrown our capacity at least once when technology came along to save us, but I doubt that will keep happening. You can continue to produce more and more engineered food and space to fit more people on this planet but it will not be able to hold a growing population forever.

Thankfully as countries develop their population growth levels off (see Europe). It's the developing countries that are responsible for the overpopulation, so population control might not even be necessary. An apocalyptic event is still unavoidable though, whether it's a good thing or bad thing, assuming you define it as widespread disaster that involves the death of nearly everyone/everyone.
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:56 AM   #22
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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but I'm nearly positive a reversible form of birth control could be done on all females to prevent them from reproducing until that process is reversed. So uh, certainly not impossible
How are you enforcing it so you are 100% positive that every single woman is faithfully subjecting themselves to this process?
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

As overpopulation is the main source of the problem, it's alot easier to control our reproductive nature than to have a large percentage of our population be wiped off. As reach pointed out, population in developed areas such as Europe and America are starting to level off. The cause of this in my opinion is that people are more educated, and more likely to succeed in life within these areas. This means that there is no incentive to create large families like they do in less developed countries. If we could educate the developing countries and improve life conditions there, population growth could be leveled off entirely and we can feasibly control our numbers.

This, in my very honest opinion, is alot better than wishing for an apocolypse.
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Old 02-28-2008, 12:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
I don't think anyone has tried, but I'm nearly positive a reversible form of birth control could be done on all females to prevent them from reproducing until that process is reversed. So uh, certainly not impossible, though I agree that it is human nature to reproduce. However, most people treat it like a right, and some abuse that right irresponsibly with severe consequences, which is something that bothers me greatly.
Maybe it's physically possible (although chances are it would bring a ton of other side effects), but ethically, morally and socially, it's definitely not. You can't choose who or who has the right to have children, you can't prevent some from having them while others can't.

Yes, it is a right to have children. It's not a privilege. It's part of your nature to have them. I do agree that some people are inapt to take care or raise them properly, and should not have children, but I still don't think you should stop them from doing so.

I don't think there's anything we can do to stop or reverse the desecration process of our planet on the population aspect.
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Old 02-28-2008, 03:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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How are you enforcing it so you are 100% positive that every single woman is faithfully subjecting themselves to this process?
You'd do it at birth by force, I would think.

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Yes, it is a right to have children. It's not a privilege. It's part of your nature to have them. I do agree that some people are inapt to take care or raise them properly, and should not have children, but I still don't think you should stop them from doing so.
Well, our society gives us that right, which in turn makes it a privilege, since not everyone enjoys this right and it could be taken away.

This is sort of off topic, but why shouldn't we stop them? We enforce laws and regulations for everything else, including adoption. Logically I think we should stop them if they are unfit, much like you stop a drunk driver, because you're potentially endangering the life of a child. I'm not saying enforcing what I conjured up earlier would actually work, since it would never pass, (well, maybe in china...) but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing, since some people practice this anyway if they have genetic disorders like Huntington's. It seems natural to screen for things like this, a long with standards of knowledge and requirements before you are allowed to have a child, but I don't think it will happen either way.
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Old 02-28-2008, 03:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

why would people want to even consider the human race committing itself to self extinction
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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Logically I think we should stop them if they are unfit
There's your problem. Who does the deciding as to what constitutes unfit? Where's the benchmark for a "good enough" parent?
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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Originally Posted by BanzaiKamikaze View Post
We have to keep faith in our scientists to find ways to satisfy this hunger without crippling our environment.
Not only scientists are involved in that. Scientists invented the water engine and oil companies bought the invention and destroyed it because they would loose money on oil.


And this "reboot" like you said will happen, either because of humans or natural catastrophe. There already have been 5 massive extinctions on earth so we're not protected.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:37 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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Not only scientists are involved in that. Scientists invented the water engine and oil companies bought the invention and destroyed it because they would loose money on oil.
Exactly what I was going to say. Hydrogen engines, electric engines... all dissapeared. Most of the patents have been bought off by huge companies and lokced away until they expire.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:13 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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Apocalypse Now!
LOL!
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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There's your problem. Who does the deciding as to what constitutes unfit? Where's the benchmark for a "good enough" parent?
I already went into this at the end of my post. Right off the bat, having a highly heritable genetic disorder means you're unfit. You can also administer the same set of tests that are required for people that want to adopt with similar cut offs. This usually involves psychological testing and intelligence testing depending on the country, along with a standard knowledge battery for taking care of a child.

Many parents destroy the lives of their children before they're even born with their stupidity: you see it all the time if you are involved in healthcare. This wasn't a problem at all some thousand of years ago, because these children did not go on to reproduce. I am amazingly grateful for Canada's Heathcare system, but at the same time recognize it often keeps alive people that would not have normally reproduced. This unnatural balance and disproportionate growth rate will be a factor in our demise, as it eats up resources faster and decreases the utility and genetic fruitfulness of the population.

As a society, we go ahead and remove children from parents that are unfit, assuming the law gets involved. It is quite obvious then, that everyone agrees that some people should not be parents. You can save a whole lot of hassle by inoculating against this early on instead of patching it when problems arise.

I do think it's important, if we plan to maximize the utility of our species and not go extinct within the next few centuries. I wouldn't put it on my priority list of things to do in the world right now though, if I had any say in the matter, and I don't think it'll ever happen anyway. Regardless of what I have to say, our government would never support it, and neither would the majority of the worlds governments. But whatever, these are the same people that aren't doing anything about climate change either. The problem will hit us in the face eventually, by the time it's too late to do anything about it.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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This unnatural balance and disproportionate growth rate will be a factor in our demise, as it eats up resources faster and decreases the utility and genetic fruitfulness of the population.
No developed country has problems of scarcity (except maybe of I-pods*). Also, what on earth do you mean by genetic fruitfulness? If a trait is survivable in a given environment, the host survives. What about that runs contrary to survival of the fittest?



*Meaning: Not of necessities
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:51 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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No developed country has problems of scarcity (except maybe of I-pods*). Also, what on earth do you mean by genetic fruitfulness? If a trait is survivable in a given environment, the host survives. What about that runs contrary to survival of the fittest?



*Meaning: Not of necessities
No problems of scarcity *yet*.

I suppose by Genetic fruitfulness I mean the portion of the population that is born capable of being productive, leading to utility - or being of practical use in the work force. Disproportionately large numbers of incapable or not useful individuals is not a good thing. I'm not saying we are currently facing any of these problems, but that it's a possibility, as I'm playing the pessimist here.

The problem I see with what you're saying about survival of the fittest is that...we won't survive >_> If the majority of the population is not productive and eating excessive resources, they are not adapted to the environment created for them. This is almost like taking a species and sticking it on another continent, where they typically cause a lot of problems. We depend on high technology and our ability to work hard and make progress.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:23 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocolypse?

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
No problems of scarcity *yet*.
Where are you expecting your problems of scarcity to come from?

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I suppose by Genetic fruitfulness I mean the portion of the population that is born capable of being productive, leading to utility - or being of practical use in the work force. Disproportionately large numbers of incapable or not useful individuals is not a good thing. I'm not saying we are currently facing any of these problems, but that it's a possibility, as I'm playing the pessimist here.
What would you consider productive labor? White collar workers probably don't need to be as physically resilient as blue collar workers. Blue collar workers probably don't need to be as intellectually equipped as white collar workers. Individuals with both severe physical and mental handicaps don't tend to reproduce even in todays society.

Quote:
The problem I see with what you're saying about survival of the fittest is that...we won't survive >_> If the majority of the population is not productive and eating excessive resources, they are not adapted to the environment created for them. This is almost like taking a species and sticking it on another continent, where they typically cause a lot of problems. We depend on high technology and our ability to work hard and make progress.
I don't see how that could happen. So say some proportion of the population is completely dependent on the productivity of others. The severely disabled, or a species of animal which no longer exists in the wild, or the government, perhaps. Once an organism has taxed its environment too much, whether by critically reducing the food supply or whatever, some form of population control is inevitable. This might just be a population crash. Maybe people will just stop paying for healthcare for the severely disabled, simply because they no longer can. Or it might be more sophisticated. Perhaps, when it becomes apparent such a crash is impending, individuals or governments will take it upon themselves to pay the severely disabled to sterilize themselves. Eugenics, to be certain, but seemingly more humane than the alternatives.

All this, of course, contingent upon the population in question actually becoming that burdensome. It seems unlikely to me. Productivity is too likely to stay ahead of the curve. Of course, other taxing factors might lead to system failure, but then we're really talking about the totality of a given political economy and not just one factor, like the size of the population of disabled people.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:50 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocalypse?

Wow.

If humans did stop reproducing for ten years, imagine all of the negative impacts. Almost all elementary schools, daycares, Preschools, etc. would just crash. Plus, there would be many people who find this insane and rebel against it, causing lots of problems. This list could go on forever
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:46 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Desire for an Apocalypse?

It could. What you've given me, however, is a very short list with complaints which don't actually seem valid or significant.
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