Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[Squeek]

Who says a lack of facts is meaningless in a debate? Especially since neither side has actual proof of what the online gameplay will be like. We have no idea if this argument is even necessary. For all I know, we'll be able to set up random matches with titles, so I can put "no exploiting glitches in this match" in the title and you can put "No items. No fun characters. Final destination" in your titles.

The only actual fact that I have is the number of frustrated gamers who have been involved in snaking, whether they played against someone who did it, used to do it, or still do it. It's the hot topic in Mario Kart DS, just like wavedashing (or whatever you'll find to exploit in Brawl) in Melee.

Then again, there might not actually be any exploits that you can mess with in Brawl that actually give you a competitive advantage like wavedashing. One can hope, at least, that people play the game as it's intended.

[sjoecool1991]

I may be a little immature, and I admit it.
Also, I am in a terrible mood today, and that always affects the way I post.



PS: Final Smash vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6EIRmuK_6I

[l2awr]

Marth's is so rigged

[Relambrien]

Four pages of flame fests since I've left: pretty much what I wanted to avoid in the first place.

Anyway, I've skimmed lightly through it all, though I'm sorry to say I couldn't read through everything thoroughly. So here's the results of my skimming.

It looks like we're finally beginning to get somewhere toward reconciliation between the competitive Smash community players, and everyone else, but it's only a start. And with all the flaming required to get there, I'm not entirely sure it was worth it.

Anyway, since Squeek is the main representative of my opposing view, I'll direct this to him. If I've understood you correctly, then you're saying that you don't mind the use of advanced techniques by competitive players against competitive players, but condemn the use of them in random online matches? That's at least a concession from earlier, or at least, a concession from the impression you gave earlier.

And I'll grant you that most of the "for fun" audience would be annoyed by advanced techniques. However, you have to consider the audience for the online community in the game. Take Halo or Call of Duty 4. The majority of players seem to be 12-17 year olds, correct? Actual adult players are much rarer, except in highly competitive situations or teams. I expect a similar audience for Brawl, maybe 11-16 as the primary age group (though maybe 11 is a bit too low).

One thing you'll find about most people that age is that they're highly competitive, but unhealthily so. They're the ones that flame the crap out of everyone else, insult them to no end, yell when things don't go their way, etc. Because they can't stand losing. I realize I'm making a generalization here, but you have to admit the majority of the people that age fit that description.

Now, this differs from the type of competitive personality that most competitive Smash players have. Smash players tend to have a "personal improvement" personality, and focus on victory through personal improvement and application of various techniques. The young players on Halo seem to have a "victory at all costs" mentality, and don't focus on getting better so much as winning, period.

So, I expect that most people online in random matches will be people in that age group. And I expect most people in that age group to be competitive, though in the way Halo's young community is competitive. They may complain about glitches or advanced techniques being used against them, because it prevents them from winning, but they'll go ahead and learn them themselves, because they want to win. And then they'll stop complaining once they can do it.

The point I'm trying to get at is this: the majority of random online players probably won't mind advanced techniques nearly as much as you predict they will. If you can offer me some evidence that the primary online Brawl age group will be older than what I described, around the 16-24 range, then I would agree that a lot of them will probably take issue with advanced techs. But I'm pretty sure you'll agree that for my predicted age group, they'll want to learn advanced techs, because it's a necessity for winning.

Beyond that, I think everything else has been addressed or discussed sufficiently, though perhaps some ideas weren't explained as clearly as they could've been. On the other hand, going back and trying to respond to arguments pages ago probably won't do as much good as harm, so I'm content with just responding to what I have for now.

[ddr_f4n]

Well while you guys are flaming/arguing back and forth, here is a new level that hasn't been mentioned yet with some WiFi gameplay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW9Ay...&feature=bz302

[Squeek]

You need to define "advanced techniques". I consider the way I throw items to be "advanced techniques", yet they're within the confines of the game engine.

And as I alluded to earlier, I'm not exactly certain Brawl will have any really big exploits like Melee had. If this is the case, then this entire argument is moot.

[Matthew4444]

Well I doubt we'll have room titles, what with the ability to put profanity in them. In fact, I doubt there will be lobbies, and it will be random match-ups once again.

In fact, if I recall correctly. . .

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamem...i/wi-fi04.html

Yep, random match-ups. Not even so much as a lobby.

I have a feeling that it will take some time before it's infested with amateur players attempting to use advanced techniques to compete. But hey, at least you can't hear them whine. On the other hand, you can't tell them what to do.

[Loyal2Death]

Originally Posted by Squeek

Lighten up, people. And stop back-and-forthing.

Jeez.

The analogy of the gun at a fist-fight is my entire point. I'd suggest you read it, because if you don't get that, then you won't understand where I'm coming from.



Super Smash Brothers, to me, is a game of who can utilize every aspect of the game to the fullest. You choose to ignore items and exploit glitches. I choose to ignore glitches and utilize items. The reason I feel like my playstyle is more relevant to the style of the game is because I'm playing within the bounds of the original concept of the game. My playstyle can work against anyone (well, anyone who decides items are actually fun and leaves them in) and I will be able to win about 90% of the time. Your playstyle can work against anyone (well, anyone who doesn't complain that what you're doing is cheating, which is about 90% of the people who've never seen wavedashing before) and you'll be able to win 90% of the time.

That's the difference. If you got some random person who has played Melee and never seen a competitive match and set them against you and I in separate matches, they're more likely to complain about the result of your match rather than the result of mine.

I was more or less agreeing with your stance. I know where you're coming from.

And l2awr, who is whining? (this post was a page or two back). I'm merely stating what I feel the game is about. I practice Wavedashing because when you can do it, it is fun. It just doesn't seem to fit (for me at least) to replace running, you know? I'm a Marth player, and the fact that he was decently fast to begin with is fine for me, but to make him better I have to dash instead of run? *shrug* I don't know. I'll stick with running, thats my point.

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by Loyal2Death

I was more or less agreeing with your stance. I know where you're coming from.

I know. I was using your post as an example, not necessarily pulling a quote + reply. The post was directed at those who did not understand my analogies.

[Loyal2Death]

Ah, tis all good.

Anyway, I watched that compilation of final smashes. Marth's final smash looks absolutely devastating.

I'm a little upset though to see that all their issues about clones don't seem like they are going to make much of a difference this run around. Seems like we are going to end up with the same amount minus Roy really.

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by Squeek

You need to define "advanced techniques". I consider the way I throw items to be "advanced techniques", yet they're within the confines of the game engine.

And as I alluded to earlier, I'm not exactly certain Brawl will have any really big exploits like Melee had. If this is the case, then this entire argument is moot.

"Advanced techniques" - techniques developed by the competitive Smash community which may or may not exploit game code.

So wavedashing and L-canceling are both advanced techniques. So is Falco's SHL (doing a short-hop, firing a laser, then fast-falling downward to cancel the blaster's cool-down lag), even though it isn't an exploit like wavedashing is.

Chain grabbing is an advanced technique, even shield grabbing (just shielding an attack and grabbing the enemy out of your shield) is considered an advanced technique.

In your soccer analogy, an arced kick would be an advanced technique.

I admit, it's a wide subject, but it becomes easier to understand once you've been immersed in it. I can't really explain it any better than I have here.

[zidart]

ugh again what's the point of talking about this if we know that they are not gonna be in brawl??? people who use glitches GET OVER IT and people who don't BE HAPPY ABOUT IT

[Loyal2Death]

Originally Posted by zidart

ugh again what's the point of talking about this if we know that they are not gonna be in brawl??? people who use glitches GET OVER IT and people who don't BE HAPPY ABOUT IT

Because it makes a profound impact on the game. Without them, people will try to find new ways to adapt to the game to be more competitive (and others trying to find more ways to have fun (IE final smashes)), and with them you again have a situation like melee except now you have a larger variety of levels and types to hone your skills.

[l2awr]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5gIgRui_MeU

Competitive Brawl looks a lot more like melee than I thought it would. It looks like novices playing melee though. Slow pace...


Heres some more 1v1s

Dash dancing still possible, but sometimes you TRIP? lol!

[Squeek]

Video unavailable.

I'm legitimately curious to see how you guys compete in Brawl. I have no interest in Melee because it's a game I've already beaten and have no interest in playing again without the presence of friends, but I'd love to see what it's like in Brawl.

I just looked it up and it seems items cannot be turned off in Basic Brawl Online. The game just randomly decides what items to use and what to turn off before the match. The only thing you can choose is a character, then vote on a stage.

He says With Friends, you can choose everything as if they were sitting in the same room as you.

Edit: complete final smash compilation

http://kotaku.com/351888/smash-bros-...ete-collection

People are saying DK, Pikachu, and Diddy are misrepresented. DK and Pikachu have timed button presses that make the attacks do more damage, and Diddy has the peanut shooter that the guy never uses. Also, people say Marth's move is a 1HKO no matter what. If you hit someone, they die. If you miss, you die.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Squeek

Video unavailable.

I'm legitimately curious to see how you guys compete in Brawl. I have no interest in Melee because it's a game I've already beaten and have no interest in playing again without the presence of friends, but I'd love to see what it's like in Brawl.

I just looked it up and it seems items cannot be turned off in Basic Brawl Online. The game just randomly decides what items to use and what to turn off before the match. The only thing you can choose is a character, then vote on a stage.

He says With Friends, you can choose everything as if they were sitting in the same room as you.

Edit: complete final smash compilation

http://kotaku.com/351888/smash-bros-...ete-collection

People are saying DK, Pikachu, and Diddy are misrepresented. DK and Pikachu have timed button presses that make the attacks do more damage, and Diddy has the peanut shooter that the guy never uses. Also, people say Marth's move is a 1HKO no matter what. If you hit someone, they die. If you miss, you die.

Weird...one second.

http://www.wifiwars.com/?q=node/75

Try those. Those are okay videos of 1v1s

http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Meljin&p=r

thats the non working 1. Lemme see if it works

edit: Yup

METAKNIGHT is a beast!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYYIffOx5z8

[Loyal2Death]

Damn, Marth's Final smash is really ridiculous after all. It can KO more than one player, in and out of the air.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ehxL4VGAdGk

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Loyal2Death

Damn, Marth's Final smash is really ridiculous after all. It can KO more than one player, in and out of the air.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ehxL4VGAdGk

Ya I doubt final smashes will be used in competitive play. Too bad they couldn't lighten up players specials so that they can be used strategically, but not with some super advantage. Like speeding up the player or something. Auto kills just get rid of skill.

[Loyal2Death]

Originally Posted by l2awr

Ya I doubt final smashes will be used in competitive play. Too bad they couldn't lighten up players specials so that they can be used strategically, but not with some super advantage. Like speeding up the player or something. Auto kills just get rid of skill.

The only thing I did notice is that Marth has to be lined up otherwise you'll just miss out (I believe).

The good news is that he looks awesome while doing it.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Loyal2Death

The only thing I did notice is that Marth has to be lined up otherwise you'll just miss out (I believe).

The good news is that he looks awesome while doing it.

He has different versions of a final smash I think.