Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[zidart]

Originally Posted by Squeek

You're the ones who continuously say I'm terrible at a game that I know I'm fantastic at.

I don't need to know the millisecond differential between LAZOR BEEMZ to be good at a game.

And by the way, Fox's laser is better. FOR ME.

It's a completely subjective experience. I laugh at the fact that you all classify everything in the game. Tiers. Techniques. Everything. It's pathetic.

pathetic is the fact that you claim to be fantastic and you still don't understand the difference between clones. techniques and everything... sure i like fox more than falco, and roy over marth, and mario over Dr. mario but the thing is there are reasons for why i don't play with their clones and i think even an amateur that had just unblocked every character should know the difference.

though i cannot say i'm better than you or better than anyone here and NO ONE here should say that they can beat the other (unless any of you is world champion) because we still have not played with the other, that's i think the main reason for why brawl is so popular. sure squeek may lose to computers but who knows maybe he can beat you, sometimes smash is more chaotic than you think...specially if you play with items.

[RoastedNoob]

So, who wants to take on my Dedede on release day?!?!?! >=D

[masterhickle]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

Squeek, please don't take what I'm about to say offensively. I only wish to point out some things that I've noticed; I don't mean any disrespect. Oh, and what I'm about to say also applies to a lot of others, but Squeek is the most "visible" example of what I'm saying.

Judging by your posts in here, you appear to be very arrogant and self-centered ("a game I know I'm fantastic at"), and unwilling to accept new ideas. Of course, you're not the only one...a lot of people seem to be the same way, but you stand out the most.

It's like you want everyone to conform to your standards because, by your standards, you're the best in the world at the game. It's the classic "holier-than-thou" attitude.

A lot of people in this thread need to step back, look at the big picture, and stop being so vehement and adamant about their positions; be able to accept and adapt new ideas. Don't be so stubborn and rigid.

I hope I wasn't one of the targets to this, but at the same time, I feel that I am.

There's a difference between arrogance and confidence. It's perfectly fine to go into each match with some sense of confidence that you can win if you play your A game; however, going into a match bragging that you can win it is not. I feel like I've just been using my confidence, but if anyone feels otherwise, please do correct me.

Accepting new ideas...I think we all need to learn to do this (if even for just this thread). We've got two different groups of people coming together in one thread, and each group thinks that their way is better, neither willing to accept that the other way can be fun (I'll admit it, I play around with items from time to time, just to get a good laugh in).

(Joke time) Holier-than-thou? What about being up on our high horse? Seems to suit this better.

Anyway, there's my input on that...


Edit : @Roasted - I'll take you on with my Pit >=D

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by RoastedNoob

Would you not want to understand everything about something you love? May sound kinda weird, but smash is, by far, the best game to be released imo. I just love every single aspect of the game. If I find something in the game that can make me a stronger player, you better believe I'll analyze it and master it. It's just an amazing feeling to see how far you can take yourself with a game.

I did. I understood everything. Then I beat it. Then I stopped playing. That was the end of the game for me. I beat this game so long ago, your little tournaments didn't even exist. That's probably why I have no interest in going back to it.

Put it this way. I love replaying my RPGs. I don't know why, but I have a draw to getting max-level characters with max stats and the best items in the game. Even though average characters can beat any challenge, I enjoy getting everything. I rarely actually get that far since it takes a few hundred hours of work. For example, in Tales of the Abyss, I wanted a party that I could take to beat the hardest boss in the game on the hardest difficulty. So I started leveling one character at a time with the best level-up boost and kept everyone else dead so they didn't level. It was tedious. It was pointless. I went back and took a normal party to the boss and won, easily. Waste of my time. I put the game down and started another one. Tales of the Abyss is easily one of my favorite games of all time, but it's over. Maybe in 5 or 10 years when I've forgotten every line of the story by heart, I'll play it again. But I have so little reason to do so.

I did every side-quest (incredibly tedious), I beat every boss on every difficulty, I got the strongest weapons, and my characters hit the max level. The game ended. I have absolutely no reason to put the disc back into my PS2 unless my friends want to play some day (which they don't because they hate RPGs).

With Melee, I did the Break the Targets, Home Run Contest, etc. with every character. I beat Classic, Adventure, and All-Star with every character. I got all the trophies, I unlocked everything, and I even shot almost every name in the credits screen. THE GAME ENDED.

Look, I understand that some people bought Gamecubes just to play Melee. I wasn't one of them. Melee wasn't my first game and it wasn't even remotely my last. It wasn't the game I played the most and it wasn't my favorite game. I have forty two Gamecube games and I completed every single one of them with 100% completions on about half of them. You know what games interested me much, much more than Melee? Mario Kart, Metroid Prime, RE4, Super Monkey Ball, TimeSplitters 2, Super Mario Sunshine, Sonic Adventure 2: Battle, Ikaruga, Tales of Symphonia, Animal Crossing, Wind Waker, and F-Zero GX. I wouldn't say they're all better games (though some are) but some of them are in a completely separate league from Melee. Heck, ever since I got my Wii I've only put three Gamecube discs in it: Metroid Prime (to replay it before MP3), Resident Evil 4 (to finish it), and Ikaruga (because it's just one of the greatest games ever made).

Maybe you're the kind of person who just had a small handful of Gamecube games. I'm not like that. I tend to have dozens of games for my consoles. My game collection is bigger than most people's movie collections. And I've beaten every single one of them.

Heck, I don't even buy that many games. I'd have twenty more Gamecube games if I had the money. My Wii collection would be at 15 if I had bought some games I wanted (which are cheaper now and I'll probably pick up over the holidays). I've already ordered 7 more Wii games to add to my library of 10 and the system hasn't even been out a year.

Originally Posted by Relambrien

Judging by your posts in here, you appear to be very arrogant and self-centered ("a game I know I'm fantastic at"), and unwilling to accept new ideas. Of course, you're not the only one...a lot of people seem to be the same way, but you stand out the most.

It's like you want everyone to conform to your standards because, by your standards, you're the best in the world at the game. It's the classic "holier-than-thou" attitude.

I know I'm not the best at the game. I understand that other people play by stupid rules. My point is that you all are not even remotely close to the majority of people who play Smash Brothers games. Even if you try to set the standards for tournament play, the majority of people absolutely don't care. They play this party game to have fun with friends, not to have pissing contests over who has the best one on one close-up fighting in a party game.

The reason I get so frustrated with you tourneygoers is that every single one of you who has posted in this thread has this notion that you can only be good at the game if you go to tournaments and beat other people. I don't understand it. You're holding a tournament in one country with just a handful of people focusing on just a single aspect of a game. How in the world can you justify who's good and who isn't based on that limited demographic?!

Look, let's say there's a Mario Kart tournament. The track they choose is... a straight line. And they disable items somehow. And they remove character selections so everyone plays the same character. Pretty stupid, right? The person who wins is the one who gets the best start or knows how to exploit the drifting engine. This is how I see Smash tournaments. You're basing skill level on who is best at a menial portion of a massive game, then calling anyone who is good at every other aspect of the game a "terrible" player.

For another example, let's say some guy on Youtube has videos of the world records for Home Run Contest. They're way better than everyone else's records. He's the best... at Home Run Contest. Would you say he's the best Smash Bros. player? Probably not. So why you justify skill level for Final Destination, no items, Fox / Marth / Peach / etc. is beyond me.

I'm acting arrogant because you're forcing my hand on this matter. I'm obviously not horrible at this game if I can get all 290 trophies. Diskun was hard enough with the no-damage clear.

All I want is for you to admit that a person can be good at a game without ever needing to prove it, whether it be a video, attending a tournament, having a representative visit your house and watch you play, or whatever other crazy idea you can come up with.

Originally Posted by zidart

pathetic is the fact that you claim to be fantastic and you still don't understand the difference between clones.

Uh, I very clearly understand the difference between clones or I would've posted "fox and falco are exactly the same in every way". I'm saying that Sakurai, the guy making the game, doesn't want two characters with similar skill sets. What is "B" for fox? It's his laser. What is "B" for falco? It's his laser. What is "down+B" for fox? Reflector. What is "down+B" for falco? Reflector. I wonder what their ->+B and ^+B moves are!

It's pretty obvious to me that if the guy making this game says he wants to get rid of the clones, then you're not going to see clones. Therefore, either Falco is removed from the game as we already see Fox making a return, or he will be drastically altered. It makes more sense (to me at least) to replace him with another popular StarFox series character. One who varies from the main character. I think a staff-wielding psychic girl is a bit different from a gun-shooting space captain, don't you?

And for Pete's sake everyone. I don't lose to the 3v1 level 9s every single time. I don't know how you got that idea. All I said was that I don't win every freakin' match. Sheesh. I'd love to see someone who always wins at every match. Then I'd love to make sure he's playing on random stages with random characters and random items. Because after all, is it really an achievement if all you do is play Fox on Final Destination with no items over and over and over again? It's just proving that you can do the same thing over and over again. It doesn't prove that you're good at the game.

[RoastedNoob]

Perhaps I'm wrong to say this, I'm kinda sleepy... but tournament play is the "new idea" here. Squeek's is the old idea. Smash has evolved. No offense to you, Squeek. That's just how I see it as pretty much everyone started out playing that way, but then moved on to the "new ideas" of l-canceling and wavedashing.

EDIT: You listed alot of my favorite games from Gamecube. lol I played Monkey Ball for hours. After I beat that I did the same thing as I did with Melee pretty much. Started seeing how many courses I could finish under 10 seconds. Err, anyway, while I was reading your paragraph about the RPG games, I thought of how going to smash tournaments can be represented in an RPG form, and I sort of see it that way myself. Getting the highest level = Training yourself to master the controls of the character(s) you plan on using in the tournament. Getting the best items/weapons = Advanced techniques/Mindgames. Taking down the hardest bosses on the hardest difficulty = Getting first at a tournament/Beating Mew2King/PC Chris/Ken/etc.. It's a fun way for me to look at it, anyway.

[Squeek]

Well, if you don't want to read it, I mention in there something that you just posted.

I finished playing this game before tournaments for Melee existed. That's probably why I care so little about it. I don't get hung up on games. I move on. It's incredibly rare that I return to a game after I beat it for anything other than friendly multiplayer.

I sincerely hope y'all don't turn Brawl online into tournament settings. Seriously. It's a fun party game. I don't want to see Brawl online turn into Mario Kart DS where you will lose if you don't Snake around the track. The first step in this direction has already been removed from the game as you can no longer wavedash.

[RoastedNoob]

I did want to read it, and have done so now. Just didn't want you to think my post was in response to yours at that point. Also, that's what I did for three years after I beat Melee. The only time I put it on was for 4-for-alls with items and chaos. Then I just found that RPG feel that I mentioned, and that turned it into a different, new game that I could enjoy for even longer.

EDIT: I made an edit to my edit of not reading your post yet as a response to your post fyi. lol

[redraver]

the gayness is that they pushed it back to Feb.
X_X

[RoastedNoob]

Yeah, it sucks... but whatever needs to be done to secure the quality and goodness of this game, I'm all for.

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by Squeek

I did. I understood everything. Then I beat it. Then I stopped playing. That was the end of the game for me. I beat this game so long ago, your little tournaments didn't even exist. That's probably why I have no interest in going back to it.

Considering Smash 64 tournaments existed back before Melee's release, I -highly- doubt you beat Melee before a Melee tournament existed.

Originally Posted by Squeek

I know I'm not the best at the game. I understand that other people play by stupid rules. My point is that you all are not even remotely close to the majority of people who play Smash Brothers games. Even if you try to set the standards for tournament play, the majority of people absolutely don't care. They play this party game to have fun with friends, not to have pissing contests over who has the best one on one close-up fighting in a party game.

You appear to fail to understand that tourneygoers -don't mind- that other people play Smash like a party game; after all, it does that extremely well (seeing as how that was the initial intent, after all). Tourneygoers aren't a group of radicals trying to say that "Everyone has to play this way, all the time."

And once again, you're being stubborn and arrogant ("play by stupid rules"), once again claiming that your standards are the best.

Originally Posted by Squeek

The reason I get so frustrated with you tourneygoers is that every single one of you who has posted in this thread has this notion that you can only be good at the game if you go to tournaments and beat other people. I don't understand it. You're holding a tournament in one country with just a handful of people focusing on just a single aspect of a game. How in the world can you justify who's good and who isn't based on that limited demographic?!

Look, let's say there's a Mario Kart tournament. The track they choose is... a straight line. And they disable items somehow. And they remove character selections so everyone plays the same character. Pretty stupid, right? The person who wins is the one who gets the best start or knows how to exploit the drifting engine. This is how I see Smash tournaments. You're basing skill level on who is best at a menial portion of a massive game, then calling anyone who is good at every other aspect of the game a "terrible" player.

For another example, let's say some guy on Youtube has videos of the world records for Home Run Contest. They're way better than everyone else's records. He's the best... at Home Run Contest. Would you say he's the best Smash Bros. player? Probably not. So why you justify skill level for Final Destination, no items, Fox / Marth / Peach / etc. is beyond me.

I'm acting arrogant because you're forcing my hand on this matter. I'm obviously not horrible at this game if I can get all 290 trophies. Diskun was hard enough with the no-damage clear.

All I want is for you to admit that a person can be good at a game without ever needing to prove it, whether it be a video, attending a tournament, having a representative visit your house and watch you play, or whatever other crazy idea you can come up with.

You misunderstand me. I'm not a tourneygoer by any means; I'm simply a casual player who has some knowledge of the thought processes of tournament players. As such, I believe I can empathize well with both sides, which is why I'm trying to get -both sides- to stop seething at each other.

Originally Posted by Squeek

Then I'd love to make sure he's playing on random stages with random characters and random items. Because after all, is it really an achievement if all you do is play Fox on Final Destination with no items over and over and over again? It's just proving that you can do the same thing over and over again. It doesn't prove that you're good at the game.

Here you go again, claiming that your standards are the best. You don't even seem to be trying to accept any sort of new ideas.

EDIT: Feel free to stop this debate/argument/whatever whenever you want; I'm only continuing because I feel it necessary to do my best to mediate it. If you'd rather just stop it now and say something like "The next person who discusses tournaments vs casual play will be banned," then that's fine with me. I really don't think this is the best thread for this anyway, but since it's where it started, it can't exactly be moved.

Oh, and:

Originally Posted by masterhickle

(Joke time) Holier-than-thou? What about being up on our high horse? Seems to suit this better.

That certainly seems to fit, but I take "holier-than-thou" to mean something along the lines of "I think I'm better than you, often for a ridiculous or irrelevant reason," which is why I used it.

[SuperSonicX]

Wow these are some of the longest thread posts I've ever seen. But I bet the fact that they pushed the game back was just to iron out any bugs and improve the game a little more. (plus add more characters). I'd rather play a slowly released and perfected game than one that was just rushed out onto the market only to fail.

[Buttoxin]

Originally Posted by SuperSonicX

Wow these are some of the longest thread posts I've ever seen. But I bet the fact that they pushed the game back was just to iron out any bugs and improve the game a little more. (plus add more characters). I'd rather play a slowly released and perfected game than one that was just rushed out onto the market only to fail.

Or, what they planned on doing (such as Wifi) isn't completed yet and won't be until February'ish. But that just means we'll get to see more updates than we would've before.

[zidart]

relambien...remember when i asked if brawls updates could get to the 200? well i think since the game will be released on february now it's possible.....

i think like in other wi-fi games the rules to play with unknown people will be set and not be able to change.. but well even items or not i will not pass the oportunity to fight with people all over the world (besides the big bug for me was wavedash/L-canceling wich is not in brawl anymore, a lot of times i have to play without items anyway. is just i don't like it as much as with items)

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by zidart

relambien...remember when i asked if brawls updates could get to the 200? well i think since the game will be released on february now it's possible.....

I do remember that actually...good point :P

Anyway, so what's everyone's thoughts on characters' Final Smashes? Looks like Link's is going to be one of the best, since it hits from amazing distances as long as you're on the horizontal with your target, and it kills at low percents.

Metaknight's is similar, but with much more limited range, though it can kill at very low percents.

Bowser's is pretty awesome too; he gets "heavy armor" status (meaning he does not flinch or suffer any knockback from attacks), and gets a massive range and power increase.

[SuperSonicX]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

I do remember that actually...good point :P

Anyway, so what's everyone's thoughts on characters' Final Smashes? Looks like Link's is going to be one of the best, since it hits from amazing distances as long as you're on the horizontal with your target, and it kills at low percents.

Metaknight's is similar, but with much more limited range, though it can kill at very low percents.

Bowser's is pretty awesome too; he gets "heavy armor" status (meaning he does not flinch or suffer any knockback from attacks), and gets a massive range and power increase.

I agree, Link to me does have the best final smash. Bowser's is probably the scariest and doesn't want to be seen if you're not him. But I wonder what crazy final smash they have for Lucas and the Ice Climbers. I can pretty much assume what they'll have for Snake and Sonic, plus Ike and Pit. Anyway I just want more characters than the previous Smash Brothers and more stages.

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

You appear to fail to understand that tourneygoers -don't mind- that other people play Smash like a party game; after all, it does that extremely well (seeing as how that was the initial intent, after all). Tourneygoers aren't a group of radicals trying to say that "Everyone has to play this way, all the time."

Apparently not since the tourneybums in this thread continue to tell me that I suck at this game.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Squeek

You're the ones who continuously say I'm terrible at a game that I know I'm fantastic at.

This actually made me laugh. I'll add more to this post as I read ahead. So you dont go calling this a "useless" post

Originally Posted by Squeek

Apparently not since the tourneybums in this thread continue to tell me that I suck at this game.

You said all you did was beat the game and put it away. How can you possibly be good at it? You dont even know what good is. You think beating the game and getting all the levels makes you good at it? Good at what aspect of the game? Good at beating level 5 computers in the single player mode? If thats what you define as good then I give up on you.

L

Originally Posted by Squeek

You're the ones who continuously say I'm terrible at a game that I know I'm fantastic at.

O

Originally Posted by Squeek

I did. I understood everything. Then I beat it. Then I stopped playing. That was the end of the game for me.

L!

[tsugomaru]

Originally Posted by SuperSonicX

I agree, Link to me does have the best final smash.

Once again, you're assuming a lot of things about a game that isn't even out. How many Final Smashes have we seen? 5? 6? That isn't very many to compare to in a game that will probably have 20-25 characters. However, if you're talking about the pictures and animations, it looks pretty sweet.

Sonic

His Final Smash is turning into the yellow Super-Saiyan hedgehog.

~Tsugomaru

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by tsugomaru

Once again, you're assuming a lot of things about a game that isn't even out. How many Final Smashes have we seen? 5? 6? That isn't very many to compare to in a game that will probably have 20-25 characters. However, if you're talking about the pictures and animations, it looks pretty sweet.

His Final Smash is turning into the yellow Super-Saiyan hedgehog.

~Tsugomaru

Serious? He turns into super sonic in brawl??

[arsonistsgetallthegirls]

Originally Posted by l2awr

Serious? He turns into super sonic in brawl??

yes, watch the end of the "sonic joins the brawl" video.