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Old 10-11-2007, 12:33 AM   #21
Aleste
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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...aren't we part of the nature in this "mother earth" of ours? I like to believe so.
i agree with this, however, it seems to me that a vast majority of our species does not think this way. Nature is often viewed as everything but us.. Which is probably why our "needs" are often placed above the environment. Since we are the most intelligent species on the planet and we have the ability to alter the original course of nature, we have a greater responsibility than the lion or the deer. As for the Amish, i don't believe we need to revert to an earlier version of ourselves or even forgo many luxuries, but we should take into account nature as a whole.
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Old 10-11-2007, 05:24 AM   #22
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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i agree with this, however, it seems to me that a vast majority of our species does not think this way. Nature is often viewed as everything but us.. Which is probably why our "needs" are often placed above the environment. Since we are the most intelligent species on the planet and we have the ability to alter the original course of nature, we have a greater responsibility than the lion or the deer. As for the Amish, i don't believe we need to revert to an earlier version of ourselves or even forgo many luxuries, but we should take into account nature as a whole.
Nicely stated. I think more people should get invovled with CT Forums. Maybe the world can slolwy benefit from FFR thinkers.

This is not just "our world"; It is everyone's, both human and non-human alike.

You said "alter the original course of nature", but I actually believe what we do does not alter an *original* course. The course is naturally occuring, so once again I believe the course is original "as is", even with the affects it has by human - environment interaction.
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I've come to the assumption that you are either Miley Cyrus yourself being you are not a young kid trying to defend her, or you are indeed Chris Crocker, you related her to Britney Spears...If you took this paragraph seriously, just quit the internet lol
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Old 10-11-2007, 05:44 AM   #23
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Here's the thing though: While we can link many of our problems to our misguided notion that the laws of nature don't apply to us any longer, many elements of our current lives and society exist in a state outside those laws.

I think very few people, even among those who advocate "a return to the state of nature" would have no intention of, and no ability to survive by returning to the actual state of nature.
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Old 10-11-2007, 06:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

As in going back to a nomadic lifestyle- The return of no distinction between rational thinking and impulse? Yeah, I agree that even the most simplest life styles lived by the Amish is still far from natures original homosapien.

Many humans believe that since we are the most intelligant, we can manipulate nature around our needs, however true this may be, we are made this intelligant by nature.
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Are you has depression? Does you worry about things that are worryful? Does you want to escape the Earths? Just remember, you has a spicy life.
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I've come to the assumption that you are either Miley Cyrus yourself being you are not a young kid trying to defend her, or you are indeed Chris Crocker, you related her to Britney Spears...If you took this paragraph seriously, just quit the internet lol
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Old 10-11-2007, 06:48 PM   #25
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Well, I'll argue that the moment we gained the ability to manipulate our environment to suit ourselves instead of adapting to suit our environment, natural human evolution ceased.

We've become so good at adapting the environment to suit any condition (We can make people born with extreme disability live relatively functional lives, we can keep people alive who have diseases and illnesses that should have killed them years earlier) that there cannot be any natural selection, because we've taken the selection out of the process.

No species of animal would put remotely as much money time and effort as we do into keeping the sick, the old and the useless around and soaking up resources. From a species survival standpoint, we're making all kinds of horrible mistakes that are leading directly to the problems that we try to fix by, surprise surprise, manipulating the environment even more.
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

The only reason i said we can alter the original course of nature is because, as devonin said,
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many elements of our current lives and society exist in a state outside those laws.
Namely, because of our technological advances there is no natural limiter to the growth of our species. Within nature, every species has a natural limiter.. i.e. The frogs in the pond grow in number exponentially until their natural predators even out the number or perhaps, the resources within said pond cannot be shared between the numbers and they die from starvation.

i think that eventually, resources could become a problem, but not before we've cut down every tree in an effort to make room for the thriving population. What devonin said is a good example of this.

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We can make people born with extreme disability live relatively functional lives, we can keep people alive who have diseases and illnesses that should have killed them years earlier

Would this not be altering the course of nature? i don't believe nature would destroy itself in this way. Everything is normally balanced and self contained. Nature created us.. but now we are natural selection in one way or another... albeit many of these choices are questionable lol.

Kaoz, thanks for the compliment by the way.
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Old 10-11-2007, 10:27 PM   #27
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

I see no point in posting an opinion because this can never be changed, only debated and argued over some more.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:19 AM   #28
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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Well, I'll argue that the moment we gained the ability to manipulate our environment to suit ourselves instead of adapting to suit our environment, natural human evolution ceased.

We've become so good at adapting the environment to suit any condition (We can make people born with extreme disability live relatively functional lives, we can keep people alive who have diseases and illnesses that should have killed them years earlier) that there cannot be any natural selection, because we've taken the selection out of the process.

No species of animal would put remotely as much money time and effort as we do into keeping the sick, the old and the useless around and soaking up resources. From a species survival standpoint, we're making all kinds of horrible mistakes that are leading directly to the problems that we try to fix by, surprise surprise, manipulating the environment even more.
Well said!
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Old 10-12-2007, 12:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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Would this not be altering the course of nature?
Sure would be, which was my point.

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I don't believe nature would destroy itself in this way. Everything is normally balanced and self contained. Nature created us.. but now we are natural selection in one way or another... albeit many of these choices are questionable lol.
Nature wouldn't destroy itself this way because nature would never make the decisions we have, or rather, anything that makes the decisions we have tends towards extinction due to predation and insufficiency of resources. Our problem is that we continue to keep things around using resources well past their ability to contribute back into the resource pool, requiring us to pull more and more resources from the world at large.

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Originally Posted by xmikeox
I see no point in posting an opinion because this can never be changed, only debated and argued over some more.
If everyone shared this attitude, it would be correct. Since not everyone shares this attitude I disagree. As a society we've already made -many- large changes towards a more environmentally conscious system. On one hand you're correct that there are many people resistant to any change that they perceive as lowering their standard of living, but there are a number of smaller sacrifices that many people are willing to make to increase the longevity of our resources and thus our existance.

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Well said!
Rule number -1- of this forum: "1. Only post if you can contribute something to the topic/debate. This means no more: "What <insert name> Said" , or "I agree/disagree"."
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Old 10-15-2007, 06:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

3 months later and everyone is still responding to a bot
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Old 10-15-2007, 07:40 PM   #31
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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Old 10-15-2007, 08:31 PM   #32
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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3 months later and everyone is still responding to a bot
He's the only one that posts topics with any degree of frequency.
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:44 PM   #33
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

He's also not a bot, just a jerk
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Old 10-16-2007, 05:32 AM   #34
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Lol, really? This should be closed by now. I think all our posts have proved our point clearly. Finally, Coberst made one good thread with out bickering and such.
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Are you has depression? Does you worry about things that are worryful? Does you want to escape the Earths? Just remember, you has a spicy life.
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Everything is Vistas fault. If your cat dies, it's also Vistas fault.
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I've come to the assumption that you are either Miley Cyrus yourself being you are not a young kid trying to defend her, or you are indeed Chris Crocker, you related her to Britney Spears...If you took this paragraph seriously, just quit the internet lol
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Old 10-16-2007, 10:16 AM   #35
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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He's the only one that posts topics with any degree of frequency.
Unfortunately, Kilroy is right. Without Coberst, our CT forums would be a very deserted and boring place to be.

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WHEN do you think people die...?
When their heart is pierced by a bullet from a pistol...? No.
When they succumb to an incurable disease...? No.
When they drink soup made with a poisonous mushroom...? NO!!!
IT'S WHEN A PERSON IS FORGOTTEN...!!!
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Old 10-16-2007, 04:12 PM   #36
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Considering that any actual useful discussion that comes from his threads generally has nothing to do with the actual topic of this threads, and certainly has nothing to do with any input from him, any credit he gets is purely incidental. I could copy/paste random text into the forum all the time and figure on some number of them resulting in useful discussion too.

Though Kilroy is right that people need to start threads more often.
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:44 PM   #37
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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Though Kilroy is right that people need to start threads more often.
I would start more discussions, but due to my lack of time and the decidedly-philosophical nature the forum is heading toward, I'm mainly just able to read rather than participate. Philosophy is not something I am at all strong in; I prefer debates on more "tangible" things.

I'll see if I can think of something though.
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:49 PM   #38
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Who said anything against tangible things? The "more philsophical bent" of the forum is a result of Coberst posting pseudo-intellectual bull****. I'm glad to move away from it, frankly.
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