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Old 10-6-2007, 03:46 PM   #1
coberst
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Default Were we better off in a state of nature?

Were we better off in a state of nature?

How credible was the concept of the Noble Savage?

The thing is that society is constantly changing. How can we create a stable society within such a dynamic world culture? We need an ideal as a North Star. An ideal does not depend upon what is or what was but upon what we want or what we need—hopefully that are similar.

I think that Socrates may very well be the first person to recognize what we need. Socrates recognized that the basic need was for wo/men to awaken their critical faculties. Socrates was perhaps the first to recognize that humans are too easily delighted by the praise of their fellows and that this sought after social recognition prevented their free and enlighten action. Humans need to share in a shared social fiction. The anxiety of self-discovery is a constant source of internal conflict for humans.

It appears that human play forms “may even outwit human adaptation itself”. The created fiction becomes more real than reality itself. New humans enter this world and immediately begin the process of survival which becomes “a struggle with the ideas one has inherited”. This fiction reality destroys our rational adaptive process which can react to the real world; we are too busy reacting to our fictional play.

Is it appropriate to say that the Amish might be considered to be the modern Noble Savage?

Is it possible that we could study the Amish as a means for creating a better society?
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Old 10-6-2007, 05:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

The survival of the individual human being is largely based on their ability to interact with other human beings. This goes back to almost the earliest hominids, who would have been incapable of surviving without the ability to collectively hunt and defend themselves. The Noble Savage, in the Rousseau-like sense of natural, primitive self-sufficient individuals, is a myth.

Your North Star might look something like the critical method; the method born first in ancient Greece, and then not so much reinvented but rediscovered during the renaissance. By this method human beings create tentative solutions to problems which are then tested and adopted, at least until something better comes along.

You make a large mistake however. You seem to think that human beings have slipped into some shared social fiction. This ignores obvious epistemological difficulties, as well as the evolutionary course of our species. Human beings will always share in various levels of fiction. Whether they come to share in these from the praise of others or from critical evaluation is a central concern, but the manner in which we reason will always be abstract; an approximation. By way of the guiding light of the Critical method we may have the highest expectation that our fictions will most closely approximate reality, but that is the best we can hope for.
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Old 10-6-2007, 05:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Perhaps we might learn something imporatnt if we studied the Amish style of living.
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Old 10-6-2007, 05:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Human race will never live completely correct.
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Old 10-6-2007, 05:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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Perhaps we might learn something imporatnt if we studied the Amish style of living.
If you consider religious fundamentalism and the technical aspects of communal agrarian lifestyles important, maybe. Good job responding to my post, btw.
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Old 10-7-2007, 08:32 AM   #6
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Bill Moyer has a video wherein he discusses the book “Amish Grace” that you might find to be very interesting regarding the Amish response to their tragedy. Compare that Amish response to their tragedy and the response of America to our 9/11 tragedy.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch4.html
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Old 10-7-2007, 04:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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Originally Posted by Kilroy_x View Post
If you consider religious fundamentalism and the technical aspects of communal agrarian lifestyles important, maybe. Good job responding to my post, btw.
Haven't you learned yet that Coberst isn't actually interested in discussion or debate? He is interested solely in preaching to an audience that he feels is ignorant and in need of his education.
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Old 10-7-2007, 05:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

To be honest I just skip over coberst's posts and read Kilroy's responses.
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Old 10-7-2007, 06:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

On another forum where the entire philosophy section is cross-posted threads by Coberst, I think he's actually put me on some sort of ignore, or else he does a damn good job of ignoring every question, issue and request for clarification I post.

Given the attitude he presents in his posts about his motives, he's either blind, or a total hypocrite.
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Old 10-7-2007, 07:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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Originally Posted by devonin View Post
On another forum where the entire philosophy section is cross-posted threads by Coberst, I think he's actually put me on some sort of ignore, or else he does a damn good job of ignoring every question, issue and request for clarification I post.

Given the attitude he presents in his posts about his motives, he's either blind, or a total hypocrite.
I think Coberst needs to read Politics and the English Language by George Orwell.

Edit:
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Originally Posted by lord_carbo View Post
To be honest I just skip over coberst's posts and read Kilroy's responses.
This is probably because Kilroy has actually shown decent points of view unlike Coberst who had not really brought up an argument at times.

Last edited by Master_of_the_Faster; 10-7-2007 at 07:47 PM..
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Old 10-7-2007, 09:26 PM   #11
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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Originally Posted by Master_of_the_Faster View Post
This is probably because Kilroy has actually shown decent points of view unlike Coberst who had not really brought up an argument at times.
Wow, thanks, I never realized that myself!
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Old 10-8-2007, 08:55 AM   #12
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

All animals, except humans, live in a total state of nature. All animals, except humans, are guided totally by instinct. Civilization is a mark of this transition from instinct to ego domination of behavior.
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Old 10-8-2007, 09:54 AM   #13
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coberst View Post
All animals, except humans, live in a total state of nature.
This statement is either false or meaningless.

Quote:
All animals, except humans, are guided totally by instinct.
This statement is false.

Quote:
Civilization is a mark of this transition from instinct to ego domination of behavior.
Given the falsity of the previous two statements this one is false as well.
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Old 10-8-2007, 03:47 PM   #14
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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Originally Posted by coberst View Post
All animals, except humans, live in a total state of nature.
What exactly do you mean by "total state of nature"? Well if you are saying that monkeys can't shoot laser beams at us, I can understand that other animals don't exactly create the magnificent technology that humans use. However, saying that an animal is "dumb" or "stupid" is a misconception. Animals do communicate effectively with motions and perhaps speech. The thing that sets us off from other animals is the fact that we can read and write. Even these very qualities that are distinct to us humans, may somehow become incorporated to a larger variety of animals through possible natural evolution or science.[/quote]

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All animals, except humans, are guided totally by instinct.
Have you ever heard of eating, drinking, sleeping, and breathing? I do all of these things out of pure instinct. The lust for life, liberty and property are also some human instincts.

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Civilization is a mark of this transition from instinct to ego domination of behavior.
Just as Kilroy said, this statement would also be false.

Last edited by Master_of_the_Faster; 10-8-2007 at 03:53 PM..
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Old 10-8-2007, 07:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Everything is nature, just because humans went a step ahead, doesn't mean it is not nature. If we wipe out the earth with bombs, that is also part of nature. Nature doesn't care, it just goes on.
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Old 10-9-2007, 03:29 AM   #16
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

My statement says that I consider a creature is living in a total state of nature when that creature is controlled by its nature and its instincts. Humans have an ego which stands in the way of instinctive behavior for humans. Animals other than humans do not have an ego. The more effect the ego has on human behavior the more civilized we become and the further removed from nature.

Instincts are the emotions that an animal is born with. Animals are hardwired with certain automatic control reactions. These emotions, i.e. these instincts cause the deer to run and the lion to fight.

Ego says, HOLD IT, TIME OUT!

The ego is our command center; it is the “internal gyroscope” and creator of time for the human. It controls the individual; especially it controls individual’s response to the external environment. It keeps the individual independent from the environment by giving the individual time to think before acting. It is the device that other animal do not have and thus they instinctively respond immediately to the world.

The id is our animal self. It is the human without the ego control center. The id is reactive life and the ego changes that reactive life into delayed thoughtful life. The ego is also the timer that provides us with a sense of yesterday, today, and tomorrow. By doing so it makes us into philosophical beings conscious of our self as being separate from the ‘other’ and placed in a river of time with a terminal point—death. This time creation allows us to become creatures responding to symbolic reality that we alone create.

As a result of the id there is a “me” to which everything has a focus of being. The most important job the ego has is to control anxiety that paradoxically the ego has created. With a sense of time there comes a sense of termination and with this sense of death comes anxiety that the ego embraces and gives the “me” time to consider how not to have to encounter anxiety.

Evidence indicates that there is an “intrinsic symbolic process” is some primates. Such animals may be able to create in memory other events that are not presently going on. “But intrinsic symbolization is not enough. In order to become a social act, the symbol must be joined to some extrinsic mode; there must exist an external graphic mode to convey what the individual has to express…but it also shows how separate are the worlds we live in, unless we join our inner apprehensions to those of others by means of socially agreed symbols.”

“What they needed for a true ego was a symbolic rallying point, a personal and social symbol—an “I”, in order to thoroughly unjumble himself from his world the animal must have a precise designation of himself. The “I”, in a word, has to take shape linguistically…the self (or ego) is largely a verbal edifice…The ego thus builds up a world in which it can act with equanimity, largely by naming names.” The primate may have a brain large enough for “me” but it must go a step further that requires linguistic ability that permits an “I” that can develop controlled symbols with “which to put some distance between him and immediate internal and external experience.”

I conclude from this that many primates have the brain that is large enough to be human but in the process of evolution the biological apparatus that makes speech possible was the catalyst that led to the modern human species. The ability to emit more sophisticated sounds was the stepping stone to the evolution of wo/man. This ability to control the vocal sounds promoted the development of the human brain.

Ideas and quotes from “Birth and Death of Meaning”—Ernest Becker
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Old 10-9-2007, 04:33 AM   #17
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

OMFG, Coberst DOES NOT LISTEN to arguements. Many of us, like devonin, have noticed that he will never reply to what you have said, or quote you. He is a stubborn bot who attempts to enlighten us with "critical thinking" posts when he cares nothing of what is on debate.

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Everything is nature, just because humans went a step ahead, doesn't mean it is not nature. If we wipe out the earth with bombs, that is also part of nature. Nature doesn't care, it just goes on.
Secondly I agree with this quote 100%. We as humans, which are creatures, are part of nature. Anything we do is essentially part of nature. I had recognized this once I heard the "don't play with Mother Nature" quote. If "Mother Nature" is reffering to the world and its inhabitants of creatures, including humans, plants, and forces such as natural disasters then aren't we part of the nature in this "mother earth" of ours? I like to believe so.
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I've come to the assumption that you are either Miley Cyrus yourself being you are not a young kid trying to defend her, or you are indeed Chris Crocker, you related her to Britney Spears...If you took this paragraph seriously, just quit the internet lol
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Old 10-9-2007, 07:42 AM   #18
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

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OMFG,



We as humans, which are creatures, are part of nature. Anything we do is essentially part of nature. I had recognized this once I heard the "don't play with Mother Nature" quote. If "Mother Nature" is reffering to the world and its inhabitants of creatures, including humans, plants, and forces such as natural disasters then aren't we part of the nature in this "mother earth" of ours? I like to believe so.
I agree
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Old 10-9-2007, 01:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

Address The Points That Have Been Raised Against Your Statements

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1. Only post if you can contribute something to the topic/debate. This means no more: "What <insert name> Said" , or "I agree/disagree".
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4. Since this is a Critical Thinking Forum use evidence to back up your statement if needed.
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Old 10-10-2007, 04:30 AM   #20
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Default Re: Were we better off in a state of nature?

That was directed at Coberst, I assume. There doesn't seem to be any flaws in my statement, but I would like to know if anyone can disprove what I said otherwise.

And he quoted me? That was slightly unexpected >_>
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I've come to the assumption that you are either Miley Cyrus yourself being you are not a young kid trying to defend her, or you are indeed Chris Crocker, you related her to Britney Spears...If you took this paragraph seriously, just quit the internet lol
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