my views on how the american goverment traps lower class citizens.

[Coodles]

so if im all full of **** and my writing sucks so bad, why are people still argueing over this topic?

and if its so uninteresting and poorly written then why do you people bother to reply and fuss over this?

i admit this isnt a huge topic yet i have gotten a good amount of responses.

and yes my grammar,flow, and over all presentation of my work could be more organized and ore carefully constructed, but yet understand i didnt mean for this to become a critical thinking topic.

i wrote this for a random thoughts bulletin on my page. so there infact i didnt care how it looked, and when i thought hmm maybe some people might share some of my views i decided to post it to where i MIGHT get some useful critisism.

so yes attack my spelling, punctuation, and views but remember this people.

**** you guys took the time to reply.

i just wrote the damn thing.

i think people are always looking for ways to be dominate.

always looking for a way to attack someone for the smallest of errors.

i also think doing so may make that person feel they have acheived something, yet all they did was provide no useful hints or tips.

i mean come on people i woulda took a simple you need to organize your views.

or practice on how you layout your essays.

i admit some people shared slight common ground with me yet never dead on.

but coming into this i didnt ask for useful tips i just put the paper out there and says read it people.

so i cant expect too much.

and i also noticed another thing that i think compliments my attacking theory is that, people who bitched and whined about how bad of a job i did.

they decided to REVISIT the topic to see if i had made any new posts or what ever their reason being.

i would think that they came back to see if there was any other way to attack anything new i might have posted.

[THOR-AXE]

Okay well I don't have source on this but I've heard that the brain is not fully developed (on average) until a person is about 18 which is why I believe there is an assumption that if you are not 18 then you must be inferior or whatever point your trying to make about age. Also, as to why people look at if you have a degree or not it shows that you must be a)well educated and b)had the effort to go all the way to get a degree. Now if you are poor and can not
afford college even with a scholarship then yes there might be a problem but I think the companies will at least look at your resume if you finished college with all A's. Through classes and going to school you learn to socialize better with peers by being around them more which may be another reason why you can't just quit high school and get a job because even if you are good at making computers better if you are a complete jerk to everyone I don't think they will hire you.

ps:COLLEGE. The words underlined in red are marked as misspelled please make a note of this for I don't know if you do but I find it very embarrassing to type a word in all caps and spell it wrong.

pss:sorry if i just made a really retarded first post in CT

[lord_carbo]

Originally Posted by Coodles

:'( My topic sucked.

This is critical thinking. We're not here to praise you. We're here to discuss what you post critically. Your post happened to be open to a lot of criticism because it was fool of holes and slight hypocrisy.

How about instead of complaining you're getting the criticism, learn from it. Be open-minded. See the other side. Read the whole thread. And make your decision from a middle ground.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by lord_carbo

Kilroy, just curious, what's your opinion on school vouchers?

I think school vouchers, if done properly, would be a good step towards improving the education system. I would prefer complete privatization eventually, but that isn't going to happen any time soon and perhaps more importantly if the schools were completely privatized overnight it would lead to huge short term problems that would dramatically shake the public faith in market forces.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by Coodles

so if im all full of **** and my writing sucks so bad, why are people still argueing over this topic? and if its so uninteresting and poorly written then why do you people bother to reply and fuss over this?

Some of us are interested in trying to get closer to the truth, or in helping others to do the same.

[somerndmguy]

Originally Posted by Coodles

so if im all full of **** and my writing sucks so bad, why are people still argueing over this topic?

and if its so uninteresting and poorly written then why do you people bother to reply and fuss over this?

...

**** you guys took the time to reply.

i just wrote the damn thing.

i think people are always looking for ways to be dominate.

always looking for a way to attack someone for the smallest of errors.

i also think doing so may make that person feel they have acheived something, yet all they did was provide no useful hints or tips.

...

and i also noticed another thing that i think compliments my attacking theory is that, people who bitched and whined about how bad of a job i did.

they decided to REVISIT the topic to see if i had made any new posts or what ever their reason being.

i would think that they came back to see if there was any other way to attack anything new i might have posted.

And has everyone who posted in this thread attacked you on your bad spelling, grammar, or punctuation specifically?

Has everyone here attacked only you and your ideas?

I think people are here to debate with each other and see each other's viewpoints on the subject.

...And I just realized how much of a hypocrite I was in this post.

[devonin]

Has everyone here attacked only you and your ideas?

You say that like it is one category of action.

Attacking a person is incredibly poor form, and when it happens, mods tend to want to slap some bans around. Attacking someone's ideas, provided you do so in a reasonable and logical manner, is exactly the opposite.

This is a forum for discussion and debate, and analysis. If you want people to just smile and nod, or post "I agree" or "I disagree" then perhaps you should head over to chit-chat.

[Chrissi]

I'd like an opportunity to respond seriously to the original post in this thread. In the interest of saving space and making things easier to read, what I'm going to do is snippet arguments from the original post in bold, and make my rebuttal underneath in non-bold.

Advice for the poster: don't defend yourself until you've been attacked. Throughout the entire post you are on the defensive. You should be on the informative. You should be trying to tell us something we don't already know and trying to explain why you have the views you have - not trying to defend yourself against an imaginary attacker. If someone attacks your argument, address it appropriately, but only once it's been attacked. Otherwise, you are simply wordy and you lose major credibility by remaining on the defensive for no reason whatsoever.

I mean if someone is just smart. i can take a computer apart and put it back together even better. Its very simple. Its also a job that gets a VERY high salary BUT!!! you have to get a degree. ok now why, if i know how to do something, must i go through COLLEGE.

Knowing how to take something apart and put it back together doesn't mean you are adequately trained for the job, trained for the working world, and trained for life in general as an educated member of society. It means you will probably be good at the part of the job that you hope to achieve someday where you take apart machines and put them back together - but even if you work at a computer repair shop, life isn't that simple. That isn't all you need to survive as an adult in the working world.

my friend just told me the other day, "colledge cost about 23,000 something dollars that iam loaning from the school but i have to pay back after i get a degree/job." so im like... umm...if the school has money...why do they need to give it to you to buy stuff...cant they just... loan the **** to you? i mean pay for it if it gets damaged or something sure.. but they loan you money they already have.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. If you could respond back with a clear, concise description of what your point was, I can fully address this.

Im sorry

Please don't apologize. Nobody's said anything yet. Saying "I'm sorry" decays your essay into a rant.

i think school should be a choice. after your sophmore year i think you should be able to choose if you want to go to school anymore or not.

Isn't that the way it is already? I thought once you were 16 you weren't legally obliged to remain in school. Perhaps that's just Canada.

i from my own life experiences know things would be easier. im ****ing starving because we dont got enough money, why dont we have enough money my moms single i dont expect her to support me and hers eating smoking and bills. so i would go get a job at like arbys or something. BUT!! you have to have a workers permit if your under 18. well to get a workers permit YOU HAVE TO HAVE GOOD GRADES. now if your DP&L was turned off because your poor and its 90 degrees outside. and even hotter inside. do you really think i can study like that?

I understand. From your perspective it looks like everyone's bringing you down. You need money, and you can't work. You're hungry, and you have no food. Your mother's poor, and you can't help. But let's look at this from a wider view. And for this, since I don't know anything about worker's permits and "DP&L" (not sure what that is), I'm going to assume you have your facts straight.

For one thing, you said that you and your mother have smoking habits. If you kicked that, you'd have more money. It's been said that "where there's a will, there's a way" (I hate using cliches, but I think it's oddly appropriate here). If you really wanted a better environment, you'd both quit smoking. I realize this is a difficult thing to do. But human being are blessed with a strong will to survive and flourish. And if you really wanted food, you'd buy that loaf of bread over a pack of cigarettes.

Finally, if you're as smart as you say, why don't you just... get good grades? That would solve the problem of not being able to work. What are you doing with your time that's so much more important than learning things? And since when is learning ever a bad thing?


our goverment FORCES kids to basically either learn or suffer. oh theres medicare and blue cross and welfare and social security the goverment helps out... bull****. the goverment knows our problems. yet they still wont realize that **** we are the leading country in the world we dont gotta try and show off our schools.

I'd like to know what you think is wrong with learning. In my opinion, learning is a pretty good thing. I'd like to think that most people feel the same way. I think an educated society is a good society. Education is set up in such a way as to require all children to attend school until they are 16. Guess what that means? Children who wouldn't otherwise get an education are actually getting one. Children of parents stuck in poverty are allowed the privilege of going to school and staying out of the work force until mature. And since they are given this privilege, they stand a better chance than their parents of moving up in the world. The more education they receive, the further up they can move. Education allows us to be more active citizens, more skilled labourers, and lets the child of a single mother struggling in poverty decide that he wants to study and become a doctor.

If only it were all free. Unfortunately, we're only provided with this privilege for free up to a certain point in North America. There are places in Europe where a university education is publicly funded. In these places, everyone is truly given an equal opportunity to move up in the world. And in Canada, we have a leg up on America, as far as I know; our post-secondary education is partially subsidized. That means we don't pay the full cost. We pay about 1/3. The government pays another 1/3, and the rest comes from various sources such as fundraising and corporate sponsorships.

Like you said, some people are "just smart". But what about the ones who aren't? What about the people who need to read a few books to earn what society sees as enough knowledge to earn a living? I think you're taking a few things for granted. For one, school taught you how to read. Even if you feel that you learned most of your reading ability from your parents, your parents likely learned it from school. And since you seem to be below the poverty line, you truly are indebted to society for your ability to read. You would not have this ability without the services that your society offers, and "forces" you to take part in.

Think about if you were living in your respective social class in society 200 years ago. You would be starving, forced to work and aid your family, and you STILL wouldn't know how to read. I think you have a pretty good deal here.

maybe theres a highschool student who might have known how to make the twin towers strong enough to withstand those attacks. but oh ****. hes only a junior..... hes still got 6 years to go before he could do anything! WTF i say if you have a skill ****ing use it.

A lot of this seems to be rhetoric designed to invoke feelings of guilt and regret. Stop it. It doesn't make for good argumentation. An intelligent reader sees right through it and finds you to be foolish.

Anyway, you do have a point there, but it is a limited point. Yes, if a child had an ability that could help the world, in many cases he or she wouldn't be able to use it to its maximum effectiveness until they left school and joined the work force. However, think about the other consequences of this. If the child prodigy excelled in, for example, concepts of physics and could be of great help to physicists in understanding... things that physicists seek to understand, but the child hadn't learned, for example, to read and write, the child would quickly become a burden and it would be difficult to communicate with this child, who, as a genius, had not achieved a sufficient education to get along with people.

Education prepares us to be citizens who work and have the means to pull themselves out of poverty. You have to think about the future instead of the present sometimes. In your current situation, it is a shame that you cannot work to improve your situation until you are older. However, think about when you are older!! Since you've received your general education, you'll be better adapted to the working environment, and you will do much better than your mother. Things are looking up for you, kid. Stick with it.

the goverment doesnt care about drops outs. THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO. they have more important things on their mind than education!

Well, I've already addressed why little is more important than education.

im sorry when im at home hungry as **** because i havent ate for a few days its not easy to find the hypotneuse of a right triangle.

If you quit school and started working, it might aleviate your hunger; however, you would still not be able to point out a hypoteneuse. Hunger is a current condition, and as long as you are surviving, you'll be okay. But not knowing what a hypoteneuse is means that you cannot do basic math, which means that you can only function as a citizen at a very low level. Viewing it this way, you'll see why it's not staying in school, but QUITTING school, that "traps" children of lower income families.

standards are set by some ****ing scientist who says well most sucessfull people need this grade by this time.

You have demonstrated why the education system is needed. You obviously don't know what science is or what a scientist does.

i need some air conditioning.

Air conditioning is a relatively recent invention. 75 years ago you could not have had an air conditioner even if you had had the money. Nobody had air conditioners. GASP! How did people cope?!? It's a comfort issue, not a learning issue.

the only other person who lives in this house is me. and i cant get a job because my grades are low. why are my grades low im stressed and im depressed becasue i have to get yelled at by my mom because we dont have money and that makes her stressed. why does that make her stressed? because if we dont have money they will take our BASIC LIVING NEEDS FROM US.

That does sound like a bit of a pickle. Your thread of ideas makes sense, and seems to trap you into your current situation. However, you are presenting an extremely biased argument.

You do not mention that, when you are at school, your basic comfort needs are probably met. Schools usually have air conditioners. Schools often have breakfast programs, where you can receive a free breakfast (or maybe, again, this is a Canadian thing? I hope not. It's a fantastic idea.)

You do not mention that your basic living needs seem to still be intact. This is a threat coming from an imaginary power looming just under the horizon. It isn't anything to be seriously considered. Just think: if you complete school, you stand a better chance of getting a higher-paying job, and you can pull you and your mother out of this poverty! Sure, you might have to suffer right now. I realize that is difficult. But if you really need food, you'll find a way to get it. You won't starve. And maybe you'll lose your electricity, but you're always free to stay after school and study there where there is light and air conditioning.

our goverment needs to find the fundemental flaws, and actually do something about them.

Which you have not identified. I'd like you to nod your head for a second at the idea of universal health care.

there are people living out on the streets. and it may not even be their fault.

95% of bankrupcies in the United States are a result of unexpected medical expenses.

give me a few intellectual beings ill talk psychology with them.

Being a student of psychology, I'd like to inform you with the fact that psychology is not something you "talk". It's something scientific that is studied in labs and on surveys and through the scientific method, and through scientific means. It isn't something you philosophize about. It's definitely a case of standing on the shoulders of giants. Trying to say you'd "talk psychology" with someone, and having not been educated in the realm of psychology, is equivalent to saying that you'd recognize what gravity is, and that the earth moves around the sun, if nobody had told you so. Not unless you are a genius you wouldn't have.

In conclusion: if you're looking for a reason that america's government traps lower class citizens, you oughtn't attack the privilege of universal, free, mandatory schooling for minors. It's actually one of the best things they're doing, and could be vastly improved by an expansion to government-subsidized post-secondary education. In other issues, universal free health care would make a world of difference for america's poor.

[Kilroy_x]

Chrissi, there are two main problems with some of what you said

Firstly, you seem to be holding people hostage to the actions of others. You do this once when you state that the OP can better his fortunes if only his mother improves herself. You do it again when you say that even smart people should be forced to attend school because of the benefits of schooling to less intelligent people.

Secondly, you state categorically that learning is good without providing a basis for it. To avoid confusion, nothing can be good in and of itself. All good is subjective. Hence if there exist individuals who do not desire education, education is not good for them.

[devonin]

To avoid confusion, nothing can be good in and of itself. All good is subjective. Hence if there exist individuals who do not desire education, education is not good for them.

There are plenty of schools of philosophical thought that disagree with you on that one. There are all kinds of things that are good for people that they don't desire. For example the eight year old who does not desire to eat his vegetables.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by devonin

There are plenty of schools of philosophical thought that disagree with you on that one.

Are any of them less than 100 years old?

There are all kinds of things that are good for people that they don't desire. For example the eight year old who does not desire to eat his vegetables.

Ok, in this case vegetables create a condition which some would call desirable, namely health. However the vegetables aren't desired in and of themselves. There is also the possibility that some people don't value health.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

Chrissi, there are two main problems with some of what you said

Firstly, you seem to be holding people hostage to the actions of others. You do this once when you state that the OP can better his fortunes if only his mother improves herself.

I don't remember saying this.

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

You do it again when you say that even smart people should be forced to attend school because of the benefits of schooling to less intelligent people.

I did say that school is beneficial to less intelligent people, but I also explained why it's good for smart people. Even though some people ARE just "born smart", it doesn't mean they know everything they need to know. Education ensures that we are all fit to be citizens when we mature. A genius in math still needs to know english. Likewise, a genius in english still needs to know math. This is basic stuff.

And many people would say that, at the ages of 16 and under, children/adolescents/teenagers don't exactly know what's best for them, so letting them choose whether they want to school or not doesn't really work. There are benefits for EVERYONE for attending school, not just those with less intelligence.

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

Secondly, you state categorically that learning is good without providing a basis for it. To avoid confusion, nothing can be good in and of itself. All good is subjective. Hence if there exist individuals who do not desire education, education is not good for them.

I think education is good because an educated society is a good thing to have. This is a means to an end. I think it's just good to have an educated society. Hopefully most people would agree. If you don't agree, you can go ahead and call moot point on everything I just said.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by Chrissi

I don't remember saying this.

Originally Posted by Chrissi

For one thing, you said that you and your mother have smoking habits. If you kicked that, you'd have more money. It's been said that "where there's a will, there's a way" (I hate using cliches, but I think it's oddly appropriate here). If you really wanted a better environment, you'd both quit smoking.

I did say that school is beneficial to less intelligent people, but I also explained why it's good for smart people. Even though some people ARE just "born smart", it doesn't mean they know everything they need to know. Education ensures that we are all fit to be citizens when we mature. A genius in math still needs to know english. Likewise, a genius in english still needs to know math. This is basic stuff.

This is rubbish. There are plenty of jobs which require very deep knowledge of one area and almost no knowledge of other areas.

And many people would say that, at the ages of 16 and under, children/adolescents/teenagers don't exactly know what's best for them, so letting them choose whether they want to school or not doesn't really work. There are benefits for EVERYONE for attending school, not just those with less intelligence.

Many people would say no one knows what's best for them. These people include the world's Hitlers and Stalins. Why draw the line at any one age? People make bad decisions at every age. That doesn't justify restricting freedom.

You would also have a DAMN hard time convincing me that someone intelligent who was forced to go to school and ended up getting knifed to death for seeming too pompous to the wrong person benefited from mandatory schooling. Or someone who was given C's and D's for disagreeing with the teacher's political beliefs because they were intelligent enough to have formulated their own opinions about things. Or someone who was sent to alternative school because they made the mistake of trusting the wrong teacher with information about their sexual identity or orientation.

These people exist, and if you want to keep spouting off the type of nonsense you are now maybe you should answer to them first.

I think education is good because an educated society is a good thing to have. This is a means to an end. I think it's just good to have an educated society.

Circular proof. Circularity generally indicates unfalsifiability. Unfalsifiability indicates lack of substance. Hence lack of legitimacy.

Hopefully most people would agree.

That's not the point. The people who would agree should work for an educated society by educating themselves and by working through voluntary means to encourage others to pursue education. Not by force.

If you don't agree, you can go ahead and call moot point on everything I just said.

What you said isn't moot, it's foolhardy, arrogant, and demeaning.

[devonin]

This is rubbish. There are plenty of jobs which require very deep knowledge of one area and almost no knowledge of other areas.

And so with nothing but that specialized knowledge of one area, you are perfectly capable of doing that job...Chrissi's point was that an education also gives you necessary skills and knowledge for simply living your life outside the bounds of doing that job.

[Kilroy_x]

All necessary skills and knowledge for living life outside of one's job are pretty much learned by day to day experience and social interaction anyways. All unnecessary skills are irrelevent to the issue.

I also love the "functioning democracy" argument I hear from so many K-12 teachers. If education ensures a functioning democracy then shouldn't we fu(king have one by now?

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

You would also have a DAMN hard time convincing me that someone intelligent who was forced to go to school and ended up getting knifed to death for seeming too pompous to the wrong person benefited from mandatory schooling. Or someone who was given C's and D's for disagreeing with the teacher's political beliefs because they were intelligent enough to have formulated their own opinions about things. Or someone who was sent to alternative school because they made the mistake of trusting the wrong teacher with information about their sexual identity or orientation.

These people exist, and if you want to keep spouting off the type of nonsense you are now maybe you should answer to them first.

These people are exceptions. All I can say is that generally, education is good for most people. There are obviously going to be some casualties in any system you put up. Do you think that there would be less problems if every child was allowed to choose for him or herself whether they can go to school?

I'm not saying "everything's perfect and everyone will be happy if they just complete their mandatory minimum education and we are all free and equal and we can be whatever we want to be and you can be the president if you just get that high school diploma." No. This isn't how the world works. Not everyone is put in the same situation. And things happen no matter what system you implement.

In other words, I never said mandatory education was a perfect system, nor did I intend to make anyone think it was. I just think it's generally good for most people, and you're going to be hard-pressed coming up with a better way to make sure as many people as possible are fairly well-off regardless of what social class they come from.

However, if you do have a better idea, I'd honestly love to hear it (no sarcasm. Trust me. This is CT) and consider its merits.

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

All necessary skills and knowledge for living life outside of one's job are pretty much learned by day to day experience and social interaction anyways. All unnecessary skills are irrelevent to the issue.

Well, for some people, these skills are gained ouside of school. For others, who aren't in the same situation, school is the only place where they will gain insight into society and its functions and the prerequisites they need to function in it.

A bit of a personal story: As hoitytoity and educated as I am, I'm not good at social interaction. If I hadn't been going to school, I would have had ZERO social interaction during my childhood and adolescence. I am somewhat more sociable now, and have been dealing with my social fears as of late. But as a child, I wanted nothing to do with anyone. I think most of this was due to my upbringing. My mother strongly resisted the idea of me socializing; if I wanted to invite a friend over, she'd tell me she has a headache. There was always some half-assed reason for me not to to leave the house and not to let anyone else in.

That's just an example of how education gives everybody a slice of equal opportunity as a child to develop into a citizen. For everyone, it's different. Some kids wouldn't know how to read. There are myriads of different deficiencies that individuals have in their particular social situation. Public education is roughly equalizing. Yes, it's not perfect, and people fall through the cracks, but that's not what we're trying to do. The effort to equalize everyone is there. The effort to ensure everyone is adequately prepared is there. And usually, it works.

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

What you said isn't moot, it's foolhardy, arrogant, and demeaning.

Listen, we could write pages and pages and pages about why an educated society is an important thing, but I'm not interested in philosophizing in that direction. One of the things I take for granted is that an educated society is a good thing. Circular, foolish, whatever, I don't want to argue it. If you are going to attack my ideas, do it under my pretenses. If you don't like the pretenses, I'm not interested in arguing them. It would take too much of my energy. If you don't like the pretenses, you can easily ignore all my points, since they obviously don't apply if you don't hold the same belief. That's all I am trying to say.

[Coodles]

i love it how people come here and try and say im looking for praise or sympathy.

im looking to see what people think.

and if people might use constructive critisism i might be able to get something out of this.

i know people who are in their 40s in colledge, and she STILL hasnt a clue what she wants to finish as.

she still has no idea what she wasnts to be for the rest of her life.

and even so if she chose a job she wouldnt be working like a fresh outta highschool straight through colledge person she took her time in years.

so even after finally finishing in something she would have the disadvantage because she is older and wouldnt have to work as many years as others before she could retire.

a manager looks at 2 people and says this ones about 24. and this ones about 46 hmm... ill get more time and work out of the 24 year old if he stays with the same line of work his entire life more than i will the 46 year old who would have less time before she retires hire the 24 year old.

iam 15. iam not that old. i understand i have more to learn in life and more time to decide what i would like to excel in, in years.

no i dont check my grammar. why do it? for public appeal? XDD

no thanks. ill write my thoughts and if people cant figure out what im saying then im sorry just dont leave your thoughts.

i came here to try and get some good seggestions on my topic not to get attacked by people for my grammar errors and such, if i really cared about it i would fix it.

so what i would like to say is please if your going to attack my grammar or spelling. why dont you save me my eyes and other readers eyes time. and just

dont post a reply ^_^

i have seen some good thoughts out there and i like that.

ive seen harsh words that have made sense to me.

but i rather it not be harsh.

make it nice simple seggestions or points.

if your going to quote me and switch the quote to something like

Coodles says:
"my topic sucks"

or something.

thats really not that funny. its just demeaning to yourself and makes you look like a 5 year old.

in any case thank you to those who have left good thoughts.

my friend who studies sociology says her teacher was looking for a paper kinda like this so im going to have her look at it and see if she wants to take it to her teacher.

^_^

POST ON! ^_^

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by Chrissi

These people are exceptions.

Yes, yes they are. Exceptions break the rule. You stated a universal, I disproved it.

All I can say is that generally, education is good for most people. There are obviously going to be some casualties in any system you put up. Do you think that there would be less problems if every child was allowed to choose for him or herself whether they can go to school?

Less problems, absolutely. That's precisely what the issue is. Even with imperfection as a guarantee we are obligated to strive for what little we can achieve.

In other words, I never said mandatory education was a perfect system, nor did I intend to make anyone think it was. I just think it's generally good for most people, and you're going to be hard-pressed coming up with a better way to make sure as many people as possible are fairly well-off regardless of what social class they come from.

Of course I'm not. Unless you would care to explain to me why Milton Friedman's notion of a voucher system is not an improvement, or Murray Rothbard's anarcho-capitalist arguments are invalid.

Well, for some people, these skills are gained ouside of school. For others, who aren't in the same situation, school is the only place where they will gain insight into society and its functions and the prerequisites they need to function in it.

Really? You think the ability to speak comprehensible English couldn't be learned outside the classroom? Or the ability to initiate others in conversation? These skills are learned outside the classroom almost by necessity; to put it another way, any skills that are necessary to learn are going to be learned one way or another if they are going to be learned at all.

A bit of a personal story: As hoitytoity and educated as I am, I'm not good at social interaction. If I hadn't been going to school, I would have had ZERO social interaction during my childhood and adolescence. I am somewhat more sociable now, and have been dealing with my social fears as of late. But as a child, I wanted nothing to do with anyone. I think most of this was due to my upbringing. My mother strongly resisted the idea of me socializing; if I wanted to invite a friend over, she'd tell me she has a headache. There was always some half-assed reason for me not to to leave the house and not to let anyone else in.

Do you really think that if public schooling weren't around you would have just sat around at home? You seem to be mistakenly assuming that public education would be replaced with nothing. This is not the case. I mean for crying out loud, my primary source of socialization was the internet. All public school ever did was made me afraid of people.

That's just an example of how education gives everybody a slice of equal opportunity as a child to develop into a citizen.

No it isn't. It's an example of how one individual was helped by one situation for specific reasons.

Yes, it's not perfect, and people fall through the cracks, but that's not what we're trying to do.

And blood letting isn't supposed to kill your patient, but it's still equally backwards.

Listen, we could write pages and pages and pages about why an educated society is an important thing, but I'm not interested in philosophizing in that direction.

Apparently you aren't interested in honesty either.

One of the things I take for granted is that an educated society is a good thing. Circular, foolish, whatever, I don't want to argue it.

Case in point.

If you are going to attack my ideas, do it under my pretenses.

What pretenses are those? If you hold that education is a good thing, you should adopt policy which generates the best forms of education. That's what a free-market policy would do.

If you don't like the pretenses, I'm not interested in arguing them. It would take too much of my energy. If you don't like the pretenses, you can easily ignore all my points, since they obviously don't apply if you don't hold the same belief. That's all I am trying to say.

All you're trying to say is that you're lazy and arrogant. Got it.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

Apparently you aren't interested in honesty either.

All you're trying to say is that you're lazy and arrogant. Got it.

I take offense to this. Please don't attack me. This is inappropriate behaviour.

You're obviously only interested in belittling me and trying to make it seem like I have ill intentions. Not interested in honesty? I haven't said anything dishonest. Grow up a little before you try to argue some more.

[Cavernio]

I liked your first post Kilroy. It then went all downhill from there as you then dragged everyone into meta-discussion, with you straw-manning left right and center. Puh-leeze, you even pulled the 'school's harbor violence' card, as if violence doesn't exist elsewhere!

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

to put it another way, any skills that are necessary to learn are going to be learned one way or another if they are going to be learned at all.

You like this idea waaaay too much. What's necessary for living and what's desirable are very different things.

I think I heard you once say that you left school at something like the age of 15 to teach yourself. Mandatory education isn't mandatory public schooling, so quit pretending that it is.

Onto other things...
I think there's been a huge hole in this discussion. At the one end, someone totally blamed coodles for his situation, and at the other, 'government' has nebulously been blamed. Coodles initially seemed pissed about the government because they're not helping him out of his situation, and furthermore, that they allowed the situation in the first place. I agree with that sentiment to an extent, however, as Chrissi said, we may not necessarily know how to help you. Minimum wage laws are supposed to prevent this type of situation, however they clearly don't keep people above the poverty line, and I see that as a serious flaw, one that could likely be rectified. (Although I'm sure Kilroy'll pounce on having minimum wage at all-regardless, it's still easier to work within the system than change it completely.)

Onto the topic of having to have an education to do anything, there's two sides to this. As Kilroy has already pointed out, there are jobs which exist for relatively uneducated people which pay decently. However, most of those positions still require skills. One thing where I agree with Coodles is that it IS getting more and more necessary to get a degree to do anything. Many places won't hire you unless you have a highschool degree, for jobs which clearly don't require you to have working knowledge of most highschool material.

Another problem are people requiring other pieces of paper now for you to do something, beyond a highschool diploma. For instance, in Ontario, in order to be a waitress/waiter, you have to have a Smart Serve certificate or something. That's ridiculous. The skills required for being a waiter have not changed in the past thousands of years, yet in the past 10, we've raised the bar. You now must take a course that's a few days long or something, pass a test, and spend money on doing so. In this particular case for Ontario, this is government legislated. However, it's definitely NOT the case that the government controls all of these new required credentials that are cropping up in the job market. That's a change which society has brought to itself somehow. Perhaps people are becoming more paranoid about things, I dunno, but I definitely don't put the blame for this solely at government feet. In the Smart Serve case, I see the government as simply going with the flow, which is what it's supposed to do, and not being the instigator. That's debatable though.

You also now need your highschool diploma to go to all colleges as far as I know. But that wasn't the case 30 years ago. If you wanted to be a mechanic, you could leave school early, and study to become a mechanic. Now you have to have to good grades in English and Math; you have to know things like what a hypotenuse is, and you have to have read Shakespeare, in order to learn how to fix an engine. To me, that doesn't make sense. However, apparently people feel that it does. Chrissi is one of them.
I worked at grocery/department-esque store for a few months, and as always, there's gossip in the lunchroom. One of the workers was upset about a supervisor or manager they hired for some section of the store, because the person didn't have a degree. What the person did have was lots of experience. Yet that wasn't enough for her. I don't understand why that wasn't enough for her. I'd MUCH rather have a skilled supervisor than a learned one.
I know some people agree with me, those people who say that grades aren't so important, yet grades are what we're using to base skills on. Sure, there's the issue with grades not being representative, but instead of tackling that issue, I'd rather tackle the issue of hiring differently. Not to say that for some jobs, pieces of paper aren't important, because they definitely are. But not for all.

As to Coodles schooling problems? Devonin said it was a failing of the education system. I suppose it could be seen as that, but first and foremost comes basic human needs, and it's those things which aren't being met. Nutrition is very important for learning.