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Old 09-28-2007, 02:43 PM   #81
GuidoHunter
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Default Re: Why are you Agnostic?

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Originally Posted by agent000_77 View Post
As an example, a computer was programmed in an attempt to arrive at the simple 26 letter alphabet. After 35,000,000,000,000 (35 trillion) attempts it has only arrived at 14 letters correctly. What are the odd that a simple single cell organism could evolve with the complexity of more than 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations all in the correct places? Never in eternity. Time does not make impossible things possible.
Your ridiculously incorrect claims about statistics aside, you are SORELY mistaken if you think this is how evolution works. Of course life wouldn't exist if random chance is the mechanism that caused it.

Good thing the Second Law of Thermodynamics exists. It allows for beneficial processes to be selective and continue on while weeding out errors (read: like evolution).

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Old 09-28-2007, 02:51 PM   #82
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Default Re: Why are you Agnostic?

agnostic because theres no proof of anything.
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Old 09-28-2007, 03:01 PM   #83
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Default Re: Why are you Agnostic?

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
The claim is being made by the religious people. I said nothing about a claim being made by agnostics.
You said all that in response to a post about being agnostic. Also, you repeatedly referenced agnostics.
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Last edited by Tokzic; 09-28-2007 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 09-28-2007, 03:17 PM   #84
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Default Re: Why are you Agnostic?

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I am shocked to actually agree with a Tokzic post ...

Atheism is faith. Extreme faith actually. As extreme as any bible thumping zealot on TV shouting about their flavor of the day.
Not quite. Atheists have empirical evidence to back everything they say...or at the very least, an international community of scientists who, for the most part, agree

Atheism is not so much a disbelief in God as it is a disbelief of a "Godhead." I have no problem saying the God of the Torah/New Testament does not exist. Why? Because historical evidence proves that the stories in the Torah are symbolic poems of nomadic monotheistic people passed down from generation to generation orally.

Humanity once believed in multiple Gods to explain natural events. As our understanding of the world grew, the less Gods we needed, until we were left with one...the One who explains all the mysteries of life. Science came along and said, "no, no, no, there is no guy with a white beard in the sky. there is not hell below us, and there is no heaven." But God is a crafty devil, able to transform and distort himself, dodging whatever EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE we throw at it.

Compare that to the extreme criteria a scientific theory has to met to be considered valid, and even then the resistance it meets from other competing theories. Only those that remain falsifiable, yet still prove to be true, survive.

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Old 09-28-2007, 03:17 PM   #85
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Default Re: Why are you Agnostic?

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It's true I can't state for certain, however what you're saying violates occam. Another reason why we *shouldn't* believe even though we cannot acknowledge for sure that it doesn't exist.
Occam very carefully uses the word "usually" when putting forward the principle of the razor. Plenty of things that are correct are in fact very complex, sometimes quite needlessly so. Regardless, all I said was that you can't rely on the fact that God's existance hasn't been proven to conclude that God's existance his been disproven.

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So...ok, since nothing can be known for certain I am essentially uncertain about the dancing monkeys testability from my example...so it's possible there could also eventually be something to test for it too. And everything else you can possibly imagine.
You stated as a condition of the thought experiment that the existance of the monkey was completely untestable. Given that assertion, you have no need to be uncertain about whether you can test for the monkey, because you stated that there could be so such test.

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Simply inventing things ad nauseum to suggest that you can't know for sure is in plain violation of occams razor/parsimony. You're just increasing the number of assumptions you have to make and thus you increase the absurdity of your claim.
Occam's Razor/Parsimony aren't the universal objective guiding forces of the world you seem to think they are. In -MANY- cases, the principle of Occam holds true. Not all cases. Further, the people who are willing to consider the possibility that someone might someday prove the existance of God are hardly 'inventing things ad nauseum' In fact, you might say they are doing the exact opposite, but refusing to believe in the existance -or- nonexistance of God without plenty of confirmable proof.
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Old 09-28-2007, 04:23 PM   #86
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Default Re: Why are you Agnostic?

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Originally Posted by agent000_77 View Post
I am not agnostic...and no I am not going to preach to you. Being agnostic has many reasons some of which actually have a good point. I just wanted to state that evolution is wrong. YOU ARE ALL SHEEP!!!

The reasons people believe the theory of evolution originate in the school education system. Kids are taught that life can evolve given enough time. This is a false statement without any scientific support. They are taught that a monkey at a typewriter could punch keys at random and would type Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet if given enough time. This is nonsense. These government educated kids(at least, some of the more "mentally challenged") actually believe this nonsense, just ask one of them. Time does not make impossible things possible. As an example, a computer was programmed in an attempt to arrive at the simple 26 letter alphabet. After 35,000,000,000,000 (35 trillion) attempts it has only arrived at 14 letters correctly. What are the odd that a simple single cell organism could evolve with the complexity of more than 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations all in the correct places? Never in eternity. Time does not make impossible things possible.

Evolution in the long term has been proven false. Simple as that. If you need more evidence I will post it.
Never? Statistically speaking, by your "evidence" it is not "impossible," it's just very very small. See, you're forgetting the anthropic principle. Contrary to what creationists may believe, the anthropic principle greatly hurts their argument for creationism. Ask yourself: if we didn't exist, would you be able to observe your lack of existing? E.g. you can't make a bet that your $200,000,000 sculpture won't get stolen over the course of a year if you don't have that $200m sculpture! No matter what the chances of you getting it are. It is only when you get a $200m sculpture that you can make this bet.

This is quite possibly the easiest way I can say that you're wrong. I can get some sources that show that the chances aren't as low as you may think (those "60,000" proteins aren't all necessary for life), but quite frankly so long as there is a chance even inconceivably above 0 (e.g. 1*10^-100%), then the chances don't matter.

Oh, and don't give me that whole "statisticians say that anything below 10^-50% is deemed impossible" crap. What keeps them from saying 10^-50%+1? Convenience: it's just that the chances are so low that its insignificant in almost any situation, but frankly it doesn't matter in this case! There's a difference between the impossible and the overwhelmingly improbable.

The chances of life existing or not only matters when you're trying to find life outside of our planet which already has life.

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Occam's Razor/Parsimony
I agree somewhat, but Occam's Razor has a place in the argument. It can be used to justify a probable nonexistence of a deist currently secular God, i.e. one we don't know about. Sure that God may exist, but whatever he does to us after we die concerning our belief in him is quite possibly indeterminate because such a god has never revealed himself. He may have antlers, and punish all who don't believe he has antlers, or it can go the other way around. He may punish those who even believe in any God! He is irrelevant, so it violates Occam's Razor, thus I have justification to assume he doesn't exist so long as I remember why Occam's Razor usually holds true. That, great disbelief in religious doctrine, and the logical contradictions of omnipotence are sole reasons why I am atheist and not agnostic.
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