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Old 09-25-2007, 09:32 PM   #41
Cavernio
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Default Re: Anti-intellectualism inhibits learning

Devonin: You haven't said anything, however, you're pissed. You feel like coberts's 'talking down', when on my end, I haven't really seen that. A perfectly reasonable explanation of your reaction could be what Coberst proposed in the OP, and I'd be surprised if coberst hasn't seen that as a possibility/conclusion.
Of course, you've mentioned plenty of good of reasons why you don't like his posts, and there're plenty of other reasons why you'd be pissed. Just saying that he's probably taken your reaction against him as supporting his hypothesis, especially if he's as arrogant as you say he is.

If you actually want to be intellectual for the sake of being intellectual, you're likely going to not give a **** about what non-intellectuals think of you for doing so. I seriously doubt that the social pressure of conforming to laziness and having fun, seen in some social circles in highschools, carries much weight past those years. Unless there's a witch-hunt or something, I don't feel condemned for wanting to be intellectual.
Furthermore, if you are right, and society does condemn intellectuals for being so without a purpose, condoning or condemning it is as bad/as good as good for any past-time, such as partying or playing video games. There's no reason to scoff someone for what they enjoy simply because it doesn't suit your personal meaning/goals in life. Of course, being intellectual may never be useless, as it can arguably help you in just about any life situation, and so now we can think of it as either intelligence is never condemned, (since apparently people don't condemn it when it's useful) or that people condemn it only when they can't see it's immediate use. The latter's probably the case, and is also unfortunate because you're likely to only realize that being intellectual has the power to be useful across many different areas of your life if you're intellectual in the first place. Of course, there's plenty of smart people who curse intelligence; ignorance is bliss.
I'm done rambling.

Last edited by Cavernio; 09-25-2007 at 09:52 PM..
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Old 09-25-2007, 10:42 PM   #42
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Default Re: Anti-intellectualism inhibits learning

Darn, now I actually care about this topic. I'm really itching to say something, but I know it'll be pointless because Coberst doesn't read anything here.

What really angers me the most is the reply that Coberst posted. The world is not ran by "smart" people, although some of it is, it is not completely ran by "smart" people. Knowing a lot of things isn't the only way to be "successful" in life. Are they blinded by their own "intelligence"? They clearly did not know what they did to their daughter when they forcibly moved their daughter from an environment she may have enjoyed for their own selfish gains. Had they actually cared for her, they would have talked to her. She was probably old enough, considering she was in high school, to understand and make her own decisions rather than to be guided like a little four year old.

~Tsugomaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiluluk
WHEN do you think people die...?
When their heart is pierced by a bullet from a pistol...? No.
When they succumb to an incurable disease...? No.
When they drink soup made with a poisonous mushroom...? NO!!!
IT'S WHEN A PERSON IS FORGOTTEN...!!!
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Old 09-25-2007, 10:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: Anti-intellectualism inhibits learning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavernio View Post
Devonin: You haven't said anything, however, you're pissed.
I'm not pissed. I take issue with what Coberst does, and what is implied by his behavior. If he'd ever actually tailor a response to the people he's responding to, he could have responded to my issues instead of continuing to demonstrate what I take issue with.

Quote:
You feel like coberts's 'talking down', when on my end, I haven't really seen that. A perfectly reasonable explanation of your reaction could be what Coberst proposed in the OP, and I'd be surprised if coberst hasn't seen that as a possibility/conclusion.
I don't think he's talking down to us, I think he's showing a complete lack of respect for us. There's a very key difference. I'm also certainly not reacting "Like in his OP" I'm not being an anti-intellectual unless my issues with Coberst stem from his being an intellectual. That is not a claim I'm going to assert at all. I scarcely consider him an intellectual at all, and my issue is with his posting style showing a total disregard for the people and community he is involving himself with.

Quote:
Of course, you've mentioned plenty of good of reasons why you don't like his posts, and there're plenty of other reasons why you'd be pissed. Just saying that he's probably taken your reaction against him as supporting his hypothesis, especially if he's as arrogant as you say he is.
While I would admit the possibility that he is taking my negative view of his posts as some proof of my anti-intellectualism, I think to make that claim is ridiculous, and I would love to see some evidence that my problems with him stem from a condemnation of intellectualism, since it is in fact exactly the opposite.

Quote:
If you actually want to be intellectual for the sake of being intellectual, you're likely going to not give a **** about what non-intellectuals think of you for doing so.
As an intellectual, I care not one whit what anybody thinks about -me- but as an intellectual, I have the utmost respect for what people think of my opinoins and statements. You can tell this because I actually respond to you, instead of posting some general statement to everyone who tries to engage me in a discussion.

Quote:
I seriously doubt that the social pressure of conforming to laziness and having fun, seen in some social circles in highschools, carries much weight past those years. Unless there's a witch-hunt or something, I don't feel condemned for wanting to be intellectual.
I quite agree, thus we both disagree of Coberst's position that in fact those pressures -do- carry great weight.

Quote:
Furthermore, if you are right, and society does condemn intellectuals for being so without a purpose, condoning or condemning it is as bad/as good as good for any past-time, such as partying or playing video games.
I don't think society condemns intellectuals...I -disagree- with Coberst.

Quote:
There's no reason to scoff someone for what they enjoy simply because it doesn't suit your personal meaning/goals in life.
I agree completely. I scoff at nobody because they engage in a persuit that is not to my liking, unless that persuit is intrinsically harmful to the rights of those around me. More to the point: I won't scoff at you for exercising your right to choose the kind of person you are, In fact, I'll defend your right to make that choice quite vehemantly, but if you decide to use that choice to be a jackass I'll scoff at you for being a jackass.
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Old 09-26-2007, 03:57 PM   #44
Cavernio
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Default Re: Anti-intellectualism inhibits learning

Err, I suppose I didn't make it clear that I only meant my first paragraph to be directed at you Devonin. The rest was meant to be me simply rambling about/around points that were raised.
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Old 09-26-2007, 04:13 PM   #45
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Default Re: Anti-intellectualism inhibits learning

I went back over it a few times thinking to myself "man, the rest of this response seems a little off to me, did I -really- give that impression?" Ah well, no harm, no foul. In general my responses are still valid to the discussion, they just need to be viewed as a little less pointed than they perhaps were.
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Old 09-26-2007, 05:16 PM   #46
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Default Re: Anti-intellectualism inhibits learning

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsugomaru View Post
Darn, now I actually care about this topic. I'm really itching to say something, but I know it'll be pointless because Coberst doesn't read anything here.

What really angers me the most is the reply that Coberst posted. The world is not ran by "smart" people, although some of it is, it is not completely ran by "smart" people. Knowing a lot of things isn't the only way to be "successful" in life. Are they blinded by their own "intelligence"? They clearly did not know what they did to their daughter when they forcibly moved their daughter from an environment she may have enjoyed for their own selfish gains. Had they actually cared for her, they would have talked to her. She was probably old enough, considering she was in high school, to understand and make her own decisions rather than to be guided like a little four year old.

~Tsugomaru
My goal as a person trying to learn about human nature and why we humans do the things we do is directed not at just knowing a lot of facts but at understanding.

I have for some time been interested in trying to understand what ‘understand’ means. I have reached the conclusion that ‘curiosity then caring’ is the first steps toward understanding. Without curiosity we care for nothing. Once curiosity is in place then caring becomes necessary for understanding.

Often I discover that the person involved in organizing some action is a person who has had a personal experience leading her to this action. Some person who has a family member afflicted by a disease becomes very active in helping support research in that disease, for example.

I suspect our first experience with ‘understanding’ may be our first friendship. I think that this first friendship may be an example of what Carl Sagan meant by “Understanding is a kind of ecstasy”.

I also suspect that the boy who falls in love with automobiles and learns everything he can about repairing the junk car he bought has discovered ‘understanding’.

I suspect many people go their complete life and never have an intellectual experience that culminates in the “ecstasy of understanding”. How can this be true? I think that our educational system is designed primarily for filling heads with knowledge and hasn’t time to waste on ‘understanding’.

Understanding an intellectual matter must come in the adult years if it is to ever come to many of us. I think that it is very important for an adult to find something intellectual that will excite his or her curiosity and concern sufficiently so as to motivate the effort necessary to understand.

Understanding does not come easily but it can be “a kind of ecstasy”.

I think of understanding as being a creation of meaning by the thinker. As one attempts to understand something that person will construct through imagination a model--like a papier-mâché--of the meaning. Like an artist painting her understanding of something. As time goes by the model takes on what the person understands about that which is studied. The model is very subjective and you and I may study something for some time and we both have learned to understand it but if it were possible to project an image of our model they would be unidentifiable perhaps by the other. Knowledge has a universal quality but not understanding.

Understanding is a tipping point, when water becomes ice, it is like a gestalt perception it may never happen no matter how hard we try. The unconscious is a major worker for understanding. Understanding is that rare occasion when there develops a conflation of emotion and intellection.
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Old 09-26-2007, 09:26 PM   #47
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Default Re: Anti-intellectualism inhibits learning

It's unfortunate that what you said is completely unrelated to what I said. Your quest may be for "understanding", but as you suggest, you must understand that not everyone is on the same quest as you and that your path is not the best. Learning about the world and understanding around us isn't the ultimate goal of life, it's a fiction that you and society made up and you just choose to follow it. As Confucius once said, "life is really simple, we just insist on making it complicated".

Now where am I going with all this? Back to the girl argument, if she wants to make her life simple, then her parents should try to understand this. Although they may be doing what they think is best for her future in terms of welfare, that's not the only important thing in life. I'm perfectly fine with your quest of "understanding", but at least don't be a jerk about it. It appears you post on many different forums and I don't believe you have all the time to read every single post that everyone makes, I know I wouldn't; as such, you don't make a response tailored to everyone who asks you questions or people who try to talk to you. You don't care to understand about them, how can you complete your quest without talking to the very people you are trying to understand?

Edit: Coberst. I'm just experimenting guys. I think if we bold his name, he'll try to respond to us.

~Tsugomaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiluluk
WHEN do you think people die...?
When their heart is pierced by a bullet from a pistol...? No.
When they succumb to an incurable disease...? No.
When they drink soup made with a poisonous mushroom...? NO!!!
IT'S WHEN A PERSON IS FORGOTTEN...!!!
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