Public Schools - Bad for American Students?

[Cavernio]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

Doesn't matter, if removing discrete units of income ensures only people with above a certain marginal level of dedication remain, then removing all income logically would have the best outcome in this sense.

You know, I am a communist at heart.

My point was, which I think Slipstrike addressed (as well as most of my others), is that you generally don't want to attract teachers through money. I never said it as a truthful suggestion to 'fix' what's wrong with our teachers, although if I did research into it, and found that something absurd like 70% of teachers were in it solely for the money, and then found that these teachers are the ones who're worst, I might. Clearly not paying anyone anything in a capitalist society is a very bad idea.

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

It also means that the government has a monopoly on the single most valuable resource in existence. The resource that determines your future more than almost any other single factor.
I don't care whether or not some school teaches creationism. Let the students try to capitalize on their knowledge. There are plenty of subjects which interest people even though they have no pragmatic value. At any rate, people should be able to do what they want with their time, money, and brains.

We're down to differences in ideology again. I don't mind that the government has some control over what I learn and what I don't.
First of all, the government is elected, and ideally, takes people's best interests to heart. Secondly, creationism has less than just pragmatic value, it has no scientific value, and I'd hate to see science mocked. Thirdly, for those subjects which public schools don't teach, there's still a lot of hours left in a day, and a lot of fairly inexpensive institutions which offer such things like sports and music lessons. Actually, now that I think about it, public schools themselves offer extracurricular activities which are NOT dictated by the government, but are dictated by what teachers decide they want to do extra. I don't know about the States, but where I come from, as soon as I hit highschool, not only did I have a choice of what courses to take, I also had a choice of what difficulty to take them at. In grade 12, the only requirements were Math and English. I *think* I had 10 courses (maybe 8) to take that year in all, and the rest were all of my own choosing.

As far as having someone be able to choose for themselves what they want to do, I'm assuming you mean the parents for the kids, hopefully in conjunction with where a kid's interest lies. Children who're 6 shouldn't have the final say about what they learn.

Again, I will also say that where I've lived in Canada, there's never been someone saying you HAVE to go to such and such a school. In fact, once highschool was reached, kids did have CHOICE in where they went, with different highschools excelling in different fields. One of the cities I've lived in had one geared for trades, one for sciences, and another for arts. And I think you could actually get bussed to anyone of these schools as long as you lived in the city.

And I should address Skare Krow here, in his want to learn basic domestic skills out of school. Why don't we build a house on school grounds, install washing machines, toilets, the whole she-bang, and then get students to clean it and their uniforms as a class? Because that doesn't already exist in most people's homes, where they've lived for many, many years. If you've learned how to read in school, then you'll be able to teach yourself how to do laundry by reading the users manual.

And I know I'm siding with Kilroy now, but the government should not tell me everything I must learn, and I think things like mandatory laundry classes are going a little bit too far. Just because I like the way things are now, doesn't mean that they might not change for the worse.

I don't feel like I've been shoved into learning what I have from the public school system, and I don't feel like I've been restricted by government in what I've learned. But I've also been lucky enough to have well-off parents who let me have plenty of opportunities beyond the schoolsystem. Anyways, the public school system isn't mandatory.

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

Small town education also generally suffers from fewer problems than big city education, and requires less of a budget in any event. A voucher program might offer limited choice to people with limited means, but it would still offer them improved choice and better value. All Schools would increase in absolute educational value even if some schools would end up being superior to others.

I'm still not seeing how.

Originally Posted by Skare Krow

My main point is that we live once and only once. All we need to do is survive and what we do while we survive is up to us. Why can't we learn what we need to know to survive, study on a profession that you would like to be, get that job, and take care of your family and have a fun.

I actually sort of agree with you here Skare Krow. I remember when in Canada they changed the legal year of dropping out of school from 16 to 18. I guess what I'm saying is that at some point, a person is old enough to make their own choices about their life, and I think 16 is old enough. There are lots of careers that really don't need a grade 12 education, (although they say you need one anyways) and its silly to shove someone into learning when they don't want to when they're basically an adult.