Homosexual Marriage

[Kamunt]

Oh crap, what happened to my post...?! Damn, I thought I posted it already, but apparently not...

Originally Posted by T0rajir0u

I fail to understand how the information I posted was irrelevant. The primary deterrent to my posting in this particular subforum is that what is supposed to be a place devoted to Critical Thinking is too often devoid of exactly that. I particularly have a bone with people who post their lazy and/or cornpone opinions without actually doing any thinking (I am not accusing you of this).

Oh God, I'm so sorry!! The whole reason why I said what I did in your quote was because I thought you were saying it in reply to something I said...Wow, I completely missed the mark there. I'm so sorry, there's no excuse for me saying what I did. I hope you won't hold it against me...

I posted that link to remind some of the posters in here to at least attempt to conform to a somewhat higher intellectual standard, since I don't have to read this discussion to know that that's not what's going on here. I mean, this is the FlashFlashRevolution website. Why this subforum even exists (in a non-invite-only format) is beyond me.

While I'd be the first to admit that this topic hasn't exactly been a cavalcade of Doctorate-level thinking, at least looking at the last few pages, however, there's been a reasonably minimal amount of stupidity, I'd say. Most of the first-postards don't seem to be clogging up the topic anymore, so I'd say that, if anything, is an improvement. As for why this forum exists, my best guess we be that awhile back the intellectual proportion of the FFR population wanted a place where they could be intellectual without their topics being invaded by blithering fools. That's only a guess, though, of course, since I was not a part of this website at the time of this forum's conception.

I do appreciate your bolding of the relevant parts of the article. They were precisely my point.

N-No problem, T0ra...

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

GLBT would have worked, but it also would have been too broad for the context of the discussion in some senses. The variance in the acronym opens up the possibility of different causes for each among other things, you see.

The only problem with the "T" is that that refers to transexuals, and you can't become a transexual without the direct intervention of science--why one would want to become this is a very interesting question. Transexuality is otherwise something that HAS to happen at birth, where you get an abnormal combination of X and Y chromosomes, I believe. Possible combinations are, I believe, XXY, XYY, YY (maybe?), and even rarer, XXYY. You can't modify your own chromosomes, so you're either trans at birth or you're not--there's not much debate there, hopefully.

When working in the dark it's not unreasonable to strike out equally in all available directions. If you assume a position, why shouldn't I assume the contradictory position? That's how debate is done about issues with little empirical evidence to interpret.



That shouldn't stop me from advocating a position as long as the position isn't one of violence or coercion.

Fair enough. I suppose that's reasonable. Works for me, at least.

I don't think DNA is necessarily part of it, because the last time I checked not everything which is biological is genetic.

True, that was my mistake. I hope my message was still gotten across, at least.

[devonin]

Just as an aside, Transexual is a term that applies both to those who have physically undergone a sex-change operation, but also to those who identify themselves as the gender opposite to what their physicality suggests. For that reason, you'll find in the transexual community, people referred to as 'pre-op' and 'post-op' transexuals.

[archbishopjabber]

The concept of post-op transsexuals is slightly unnerving to me, because you might not know right away... especially after a couple of drinks.

I completely support the right of someone to undergo the surgery, but it can still add large adam's apples to the list of something you don't want in a hook-up.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by Kamunt

The only problem with the "T" is that that refers to transexuals, and you can't become a transexual without the direct intervention of science--why one would want to become this is a very interesting question.

I'm not sure why your brain jumped to that particular train of thought in response to my post, nor that what you're saying is necessarily even true.

Transexuality is otherwise something that HAS to happen at birth, where you get an abnormal combination of X and Y chromosomes, I believe.

You believe wrong. At least in respect to chromosomes. It may very well be something which happens at birth.

Possible combinations are, I believe, XXY, XYY, YY (maybe?), and even rarer, XXYY. You can't modify your own chromosomes, so you're either trans at birth or you're not--there's not much debate there, hopefully.

Chromosomal variation is only one of a number of potential causes for transsexuality. In fact it might not even be a cause, but simply something seen in accompaniment with it. Or it mighty even be that chromosomal variation rarely has to do with transsexuality in the conventional sense; individuals with inter sexed physicality often have a more fluid sexuality than others. At least if I can trust my source on that, but given that the concept of sexual fluidity hails back to a time when psychoanalysis was the dominant theory of human consciousness and the more drastic suggestions of the theory in this area have since been disproven, that may not be the case.

There was a study done in dissecting brains which suggested that there's something in brain physicality, specifically in the hypothalamus which corresponds to sexual identity, but the study hasn't been recreated to my knowledge.

True, that was my mistake. I hope my message was still gotten across, at least.

Somewhat. It's good to start with some level of understanding even in the most general sense as long as you try to refine it.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Kamunt

The only problem with the "T" is that that refers to transexuals, and you can't become a transexual without the direct intervention of science, etc

I'd like to be the second to point out that what you are saying is 100% wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about.

A transexual is anyone who feels that their gender does not match their sex. A transexual does not require an operation to be transexual. They could also have normal chromosomes. Nobody knows what causes transexualism.

I have the benefit of personally knowing and being friends with a M->F pre-op transexual. I knew him before he realized he was trans, and I know her now as a good friend. Before she realized it.... you could always tell, something was a little off about him. You couldn't really tell what it was, but he just didn't seem like a normal guy. Now that he's realized that he's trans, you can just see how much happier she is. It really makes a lot of sense. Anyone else who's known someone like this will know what I'm talking about. It just seems like THIS is her natural form, and she's been lying all her life as a guy. Comparing.... you can tell how uncomfortable she was as a guy. I only anticipate better things as she progresses and possibly goes on hormones and gets operations. The one she really wants, believe it or not, is electrolysis on her face. Imagine having to shave often enough that your stubble isn't even visible. I think she's doing a great job. Though I really feel for her, she has to spend a lot of time in the morning getting fixed up. She's beautiful, too.

[/story]

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Why does it even matter what a transexual Is? I mean reguardless of the type of person or sex orientation, this discussion has to do with gay marriages. Unless anyone has a way to tie a transexual (which I'm curious to know how anyone would relate) to gay marriage, I don't see where this is going.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Master_of_the_Faster

Why does it even matter what a transexual Is? I mean reguardless of the type of person or sex orientation, this discussion has to do with gay marriages. Unless anyone has a way to tie a transexual (which I'm curious to know how anyone would relate) to gay marriage, I don't see where this is going.

Actually, transexualism is a big thorn in the side to people who oppose gay marriage.

When a transexual changes genders, it is nearly impossible, if not impossible, to have their sex changed legally on their birth certificate. Without this, even if they marry someone of the opposite gender, it falls under "gay marriage" because both people were born the same sex. So even if a F->M wants to marry a woman, the law sees it as two women marrying.

Refusing gay marriage is equivalent to never allowing straight transexuals to marry.

And get this. If the transexual happens to be homosexual, THEY MAY MARRY. It is technically a straight marriage, even if the transexual is homosexual.

Basically, we need gay marriage. Period. Not just for gays, but for everyone else. I'm sure I've made this argument before somewhere and I don't want to repeat my explanation of how genders and even sexes are not binary.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by Chrissi

Actually, transexualism is a big thorn in the side to people who oppose gay marriage.

True, but mostly in demonstrating paradox in conception rather than in legality.

When a transexual changes genders, it is nearly impossible, if not impossible, to have their sex changed legally on their birth certificate.

It actually depends on the state. Both Colorado and Michigan allow for changes in birth certificate, and a number of other states do as well. I imagine Texas doesn't, but Texas isn't even part of the union.

Refusing gay marriage is equivalent to never allowing straight transexuals to marry.

It can be.

Basically, we need gay marriage. Period. Not just for gays, but for everyone else. I'm sure I've made this argument before somewhere and I don't want to repeat my explanation of how genders and even sexes are not binary.

You have no idea how rare and perceptive you are to understand that. Gender essentialist perspectives are at the core of so many problems today.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

You have no idea how rare and perceptive you are to understand that. Gender essentialist perspectives are at the core of so many problems today.

Actually I do understand it is rare - I study psychology and sexuality and that's probably the only reason I understand the concept of a non-binary gender and sex.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

So in psychology and sexuality do you about what is legal for a transexual? If not, how do you know about transexuals and how their marriages work?(just curious)

[Chrissi]

In sexuality I learn about it.

Also I mentioned my trans friend earlier. She's a pretty good source.

[sgkoneko]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

Chromosomal variation is only one of a number of potential causes for transsexuality. In fact it might not even be a cause, but simply something seen in accompaniment with it. Or it mighty even be that chromosomal variation rarely has to do with transsexuality in the conventional sense; individuals with inter sexed physicality often have a more fluid sexuality than others. At least if I can trust my source on that, but given that the concept of sexual fluidity hails back to a time when psychoanalysis was the dominant theory of human consciousness and the more drastic suggestions of the theory in this area have since been disproven, that may not be the case.

I remember studying that in Biology. Generally people with extra chromosomes don't know it. They don't act any different from anyone else. There is nothing off about them. None of them want to be the opposite sex. They are completely normal except for the extra chromosome. The only thing extra chromosomes do is cause sterility.

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by sgkoneko

I remember studying that in Biology. Generally people with extra chromosomes don't know it. They don't act any different from anyone else. There is nothing off about them. None of them want to be the opposite sex. They are completely normal except for the extra chromosome. The only thing extra chromosomes do is cause sterility.

Apparently you didn't learn enough on this topic, and extended what you do know further than it should have gone.

What you described is only the case SOMETIMES. In other cases, extra/not enough sex chromosomes can cause major problems that are highly noticable.

Also, I resent that you said "none" of them want to be the opposite sex. Which is untrue in any case, even if what you said is right. I assume that what you meant is, that they don't have a higher probability than average to be transexual.

[tha Guardians]

Originally Posted by devonin

Why should the child have a say-so based on the sexual orientation of the parents any more or less than they should -already- have a say-so because it is them being adopted?

There's nothing a child hates more than being or feeling controlled. It often leads to suicidal thoughts and almost always developes a deep hatrid of the parent. I want nothing more in life than my father dead, if that says enough.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by tha Guardians

There's nothing a child hates more than being or feeling controlled. It often leads to suicidal thoughts and almost always developes a deep hatrid of the parent. I want nothing more in life than my father dead, if that says enough.

Well I'm sad for you that you feel that way, but what does that have to do with the situation at hand, or the statement of mine that you quoted?

[hayatewillown]

Question. What religion do homosexuals believe in, or is there no religion?

[Grandiagod]

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

Question. What religion do homosexuals believe in, or is there no religion?

I'm pretty sure that there isn't one religion that all homosexuals subscribe to.

[hayatewillown]

Originally Posted by Grandiagod

I'm pretty sure that there isn't one religion that all homosexuals subscribe to.

I don't believe there is a religion. Even Darwin's' theory states that if we WERE monkeys, male and female had to produce.

[ToshX]

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

Question. What religion do homosexuals believe in, or is there no religion?

I'm agnostic. A (bi) friend of mine is not.

That being said, we don't all like the same religion -__-

[devonin]

Originally Posted by hayatewillown

Question. What religion do homosexuals believe in, or is there no religion?

Question: What religion do blond people believe in?

That statement and yours are identical in how nonsensical they are.