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Old 05-27-2007, 12:19 AM   #61
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Default Re: President Bush

I think George W. Bush has had the toughest term to "presidentiate" on, but c'mon, stop doing a piss poor job.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:22 AM   #62
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Default Re: President Bush

Anyone who thinks that this presidential term was the "most difficult" has a very low opinion of the great war, the second world war, and the cuban missle crisis, if nothing else.

Edit: Yeesh, what a disappointing 500th post
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:37 AM   #63
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Default Re: President Bush

I don't laugh at these "accidents". In fact I fear the day that I shoot an innocent. You must understand that I am in no way ignorant of the islamic beliefs. I am trained on insurgents and terrorist ways day and night. I simply relayed to you information (that I am in no postion to give to you) about how propaganda, and how it is used to recruit innocents into terrorist organizations.

I am tired, and have to go to sleep. I will talk more on this tomorrow.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:57 AM   #64
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Default Re: President Bush

Um...you are trained "in" insurgents and terrorist ways day and night...good for you. if you think those things have the -least- bit to do with muslim religious beliefs, then you are propagandized so completely that there's not even much of a reason to try and tell you otherwise.

I mean is "People who use islamic religious thought as an excuse to murder people are NO DIFFERENT than the KKK or any other irrational hate group" such a difficult concept to communicate to people?
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Old 05-27-2007, 01:10 AM   #65
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Lightbulb Re: President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
Um...you are trained "in" insurgents and terrorist ways day and night...good for you. if you think those things have the -least- bit to do with muslim religious beliefs, then you are propagandized so completely that there's not even much of a reason to try and tell you otherwise.

I mean is "People who use islamic religious thought as an excuse to murder people are NO DIFFERENT than the KKK or any other irrational hate group" such a difficult concept to communicate to people?
Redundant and hypocritical. I am assuming that you watch WAY to much of the news (which by the way is propaganda in itself) because you ignorance level is practically killing me.

Let me break it down without the "critical thinking" for you. I won't make ANY insinuations. THE INSURGENTS AND TERRORISTS MANIPULATE THE MUSLIM RELIGION TO GET INNOCENT PEOPLE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT FOR THEM!!! WOW, new concept huh? If you read my post I IN NO WAY defended the KKK or any other extremeist group. I STATED QUITE CLEARLY THAT WHAT THE TERRORIST DO WERE WRONG, AND YET YOU TRY TO CONTRADICT ME, QUOTE WHAT I SAID, SAY THAT YOU BELIEVE IT, AND THEN.................AHHHHHHHHHH. If you can not continue on with where I am going then you are hopeless...
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Old 05-27-2007, 01:20 AM   #66
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Default Re: President Bush

These particular terrorists in this particular situation happen to be rabidly fundamental muslims...yes, I understand, I am not a moron. But what you are constantly implying if not outright stating is that "muslims" hate america, that "muslims" are terrorists and that "muslims" are ignorant, jealous people who "hate" that other countries are "free"

I mean...I understand that "orthodox, fundamentalist muslims" is a mouthful to say and type, and it is easier to just give in to the propaganda and lump a small, violent extremist subgroup in with the entire rest of the faith that dispises and reviles their corruption of the doctrine, but that way lies madness, hatred, and incredibly bigoted and ignorant results.

EDIT: Also, the idea that someone could be moved to a shouting, all-caps tirade in the middle of a discussion that he himself started by saying how much he respects everyone else's opinion and right to state it -also- being someone who is in the process of being sent overseas to where these people live makes me more than a little uneasy.
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:03 AM   #67
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Default Re: President Bush

Been skimmin', something caught my eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin I think
Further: Even -If- Iraq and Iran were somehow connected...so? Last I checked, the attacks were blamed on "Al Qaeda" which uh...isn't Iran and certainly isn't Iraq.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisco
So your saying there is no al-Qaeda influence in Iraq? Whens the last time you were there fighting againt infidels?
This almost makes my head explode.

1. Devonin was talking about 9/11, not attacks currently in Iraq.
2. You called the insurgents "infidels"... that's just a tad bigoted.
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:53 AM   #68
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Default Re: President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
Yeah, I'm out too. The sheer volume of ignorance, fear-mongering and drawing of conclusions that have -no- bearing whatsoever on the evidence presented to back up those conclusions have made this completely into a chit-chat forum sort of topic. There's virtually no critical thinking going on in here at all.
This is how I see it. You have two sides shouting at each other that the other side is wrong. The argument is so loud and outrageous that no one can here each other over their own voices. Each side is openly praising the information that they receive that confirms their argument while entirely ignoring any information that disagrees with their view.

One could compare it to two people standing on opposite sides of a concrete wall, each trying to destroy it with a small hammer (keep in mind this wall serves absolutely no purpose). No matter how hard either of them hit the wall, the hammer just bounces off. The most each can do is hope to take a nice chunk of rock out of the wall. In the mean time, they are getting all hot and sweaty from whacking away at the wall all day.

In the end, everyone stops caring about the wall...and no one really knows why it was such a big deal.

With that said, chip away. No one cares.
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:56 AM   #69
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Default Re: President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewpinthethird View Post
This is how I see it. You have two sides shouting at each other that the other side is wrong. The argument is so loud and outrageous that no one can here each other over their own voices. Each side is openly praising the information that they receive that confirms their argument while entirely ignoring any information that disagrees with their view.

One could compare it to two people standing on opposite sides of a concrete wall, each trying to destroy it with a small hammer (keep in mind this wall serves absolutely no purpose). No matter how hard either of them hit the wall, the hammer just bounces off. The most each can do is hope to take a nice chunk of rock out of the wall. In the mean time, they are getting all hot and sweaty from whacking away at the wall all day.

In the end, everyone stops caring about the wall...and no one really knows why it was such a big deal.

With that said, chip away. No one cares.
You know, you're right. I keep getting drawn back in here like anything I say is capable of making a difference, but I really don't think it is.
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Old 05-27-2007, 04:22 AM   #70
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Default Re: President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
You know, you're right. I keep getting drawn back in here like anything I say is capable of making a difference, but I really don't think it is.
Not completely true; you in junction with a few others in this thread have at least expanded my view on the current war and even somewhat altered my perception of the war and it's usefulness/how necessary it is/was. By the way, I thanks you and the others for that, so don't think all your time was wasted =P.

Now, there's not a lot about the subject that hasn't been said, but I would like to take a moment to discuss the mentality of the U.S. soldiers going overseas. Now, not to generalize, so I will state that this probably isn't widespread but this is what I've seen/heard from my room mate (who is in the army) and his friends/recruiters that I've met while at the armory, where I have been more than a few times.

I really liked the point you made about the difference between willing to die and willing to kill devonin, because it's true. I hear my room mate proclaim quite a bit that "I'm willing to die for my country," but I've called him out on a few times due to a few occurrences. For one, when he was meeting with his recruiters for the first time, I was with him (as I was his ride and wanted to listen to what they had to say) and they were actually discussing which MOS (or specialty) he could be, and he actually chose the one he chose solely based on the fact that his recruiters and him deduced that he was least likely to have to go overseas/get into actual battle due to this MOS. And this isn't a isolated occurrence, I've heard it from the majority of soldiers/potential soldiers that I've met, including officers.

Another thing that worries me about the army is the training. Now I realize, they aren't trained to be peace keepers or Gandhi or anything, but I think some things have exceeded the limit for propaganda even. For example, my town's army branch's slogan or chant is this:

"HOO AH, I WANNA HURT SOMEBODY, HOO AH, I WANNA KILL SOMEBODY, HOOOOO AAAAAAH."

Now maybe I'm taking too much out of it, but somebody is a pretty vague term, and I'm not quite sure the goal of the army is hurting and killing as many somebodies as possible.

Another thing that bothers me is every soldier pretending to be a cultural anthropologist as far as the middle east is concerned. I've seen way too many people pretend that they know everything about the Muslim religion, yet don't know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.

PS. I realize that I don't have any real sources, thus this not holding a lot of weight in the CT, but I wanted to at least throw my experiences out there for discussion at the very least. Also, I am not anti-army, I'm just questioning the mentality that some of our troops are going over there with.
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Old 05-27-2007, 09:28 AM   #71
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Talking Re: President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by flawofhumanity View Post
Not completely true; you in junction with a few others in this thread have at least expanded my view on the current war and even somewhat altered my perception of the war and it's usefulness/how necessary it is/was. By the way, I thanks you and the others for that, so don't think all your time was wasted =P.

Now, there's not a lot about the subject that hasn't been said, but I would like to take a moment to discuss the mentality of the U.S. soldiers going overseas. Now, not to generalize, so I will state that this probably isn't widespread but this is what I've seen/heard from my room mate (who is in the army) and his friends/recruiters that I've met while at the armory, where I have been more than a few times.

I really liked the point you made about the difference between willing to die and willing to kill devonin, because it's true. I hear my room mate proclaim quite a bit that "I'm willing to die for my country," but I've called him out on a few times due to a few occurrences. For one, when he was meeting with his recruiters for the first time, I was with him (as I was his ride and wanted to listen to what they had to say) and they were actually discussing which MOS (or specialty) he could be, and he actually chose the one he chose solely based on the fact that his recruiters and him deduced that he was least likely to have to go overseas/get into actual battle due to this MOS. And this isn't a isolated occurrence, I've heard it from the majority of soldiers/potential soldiers that I've met, including officers.

Another thing that worries me about the army is the training. Now I realize, they aren't trained to be peace keepers or Gandhi or anything, but I think some things have exceeded the limit for propaganda even. For example, my town's army branch's slogan or chant is this:

"HOO AH, I WANNA HURT SOMEBODY, HOO AH, I WANNA KILL SOMEBODY, HOOOOO AAAAAAH."

Now maybe I'm taking too much out of it, but somebody is a pretty vague term, and I'm not quite sure the goal of the army is hurting and killing as many somebodies as possible.

Another thing that bothers me is every soldier pretending to be a cultural anthropologist as far as the middle east is concerned. I've seen way too many people pretend that they know everything about the Muslim religion, yet don't know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.

PS. I realize that I don't have any real sources, thus this not holding a lot of weight in the CT, but I wanted to at least throw my experiences out there for discussion at the very least. Also, I am not anti-army, I'm just questioning the mentality that some of our troops are going over there with.
WOW! That is a legitimate concern, and I tell you, just as in the civilian world, there are annoying, smart, stupid, retarded as hell, geniuses etc. in the army.

Let me explain something to you. It is tough being in the army. Depression can take over a person easily. It really sucks being away from your family for long amounts of time. So how do we overcome it? With mottos and cadences. They remind us of who we are or in this instance, to remain motivated no matter what.

Here is how that motto is supposed to go:

Drill Sergeant(or any other leader): SOLDIERS, ARE YOU MOTIVATED?!


Soldiers: MOTIVATED, MOTIVATED, DOWN RIGHT MOTIVATED,
HOO AH, I WANNA HURT SOMEBODY, HOO AH, I WANNA KILL SOMEBODY, HOOOOO AAAAAAH

Lol, now you see what happens when you only see part of the story?

Not to say that 11B (infantry) isn't crazy, BUT they are trained to kill. That's it. Nothing else to it. They go in, find the enemy, take them out, leave.

Now, it is my job to identify the enemy. You see, devonin is so concrete in the head, that he can't read my post fully. He then belittles my job with a good for you, and tells me then that I think all muslims are out to get us. I remember making sections of people in my first post. There are insurgants who twist the muslim faith. They threaten others into following them. Some resist. Some don't have to. Guess why. Because we are there.


"small, violent extremist subgroup in with the entire rest of the faith that dispises and reviles their corruption of the doctrine"

Ok, ignorance level needs to go down before you post again. I respect opinions, but I can not stand uneducated opinions. The extremeist groups are not small. They are huge. I cannot disclose how many members, but know this, these groups run entire countries, so how can they be small?

Ok, I am going to have to stop there, because there are certain things I am not allowed to talk about. Sorry, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.


Edit: I kind of answered your question, but here is the answer straight up. A soldiers mentality is based off his training. I am Intel. I have a different mind set than a "lets kill the enemy" infantry. You see? But the infantry will only kill what the Intel tells them to....it has to be balanced. Now I am NOT saying that infantry are mindless killers, but someone needs to Identify the badguys. The mentality is balanced. There is no "guessing" in the army.
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Last edited by 8Shade8; 05-27-2007 at 09:34 AM..
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:43 PM   #72
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Default Re: President Bush

I'm not sure if it varies by Army branch, but I thought it was "Hooah!" rather than a long "Hoooooaaaaah!" sound.
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:11 PM   #73
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Default Re: President Bush

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/war.../centurion.htm

So tell me this then 8shade8, if these groups are so gigantic, just how large are they? What percentage of the population of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and say...Saudi Arabia are 'evil terrorist insurgents' 10%? 20%? 90%? Give us a ballpark here. And short of the Taliban controlling Afghanistan (Which by the way, they claimed to have 12,000 members, a whopping 0.03% of the total population of Afghanistan, yeah you need a whole ton of people to take over a country) I deny that "they" are running "whole countries" when you give no evidence.

That's another thing: This is Critical Thinking, wherein you must support your statements with some kind of evidence, so lets have no more of this nonsense "I make a claim, and then claim that I'm "not allowed" to give any of the necessary evidence" style of discussion.

If you are privy to classified information, even implying to civilians that you know it is almost certainly a breach of military protocol. If you -CANNOT- support what you claim with any kind of evidence, just don't make such claims.

Last edited by devonin; 05-27-2007 at 02:35 PM..
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Old 05-27-2007, 02:51 PM   #74
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Default Re: President Bush

I like how this thread hasn't deviated from it's original topic.
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Old 05-28-2007, 06:41 PM   #75
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Default Re: President Bush

I dont think it has. Bush invaded Iraq and many of the people in the Thread are talkin about Iraq and terrism and stuff of that sort =]
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Old 05-28-2007, 07:26 PM   #76
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Default Re: President Bush

One sad thing I have NOT seen in this whole thread is support for any of the soldiers.

I support them 100% and if I was needed to go into active duty I sure as hell would.

Shade is speaking on part of what he does on a daily basis and how he was trained so what happens? People nit pick at his training and his job. I can guarantee that none of you would spit on a soldier in person like you do who says it how it is. If you want to keep the peace in the Middle East then go there and be sure to tell us what happens to you when you talk to a 14 year old boy with a AK-47 aimed at your head. These forums are so funny because you hide in a world you now nothing about but the stuff you hear from the internet or TV.

Devonin your country doesn't have soldiers so I am not expecting anything from you.
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Old 05-28-2007, 07:27 PM   #77
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Default Re: President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewpinthethird View Post
This is how I see it. You have two sides shouting at each other that the other side is wrong. The argument is so loud and outrageous that no one can here each other over their own voices. Each side is openly praising the information that they receive that confirms their argument while entirely ignoring any information that disagrees with their view.

One could compare it to two people standing on opposite sides of a concrete wall, each trying to destroy it with a small hammer (keep in mind this wall serves absolutely no purpose). No matter how hard either of them hit the wall, the hammer just bounces off. The most each can do is hope to take a nice chunk of rock out of the wall. In the mean time, they are getting all hot and sweaty from whacking away at the wall all day.

In the end, everyone stops caring about the wall...and no one really knows why it was such a big deal.

With that said, chip away. No one cares.
I know I haven't popped in on this thread, but I have to praise you for this post. It pretty much describes every heated debate topic perfectly well. People that are set in their beliefs are set in their beliefs, and will not change.

Personally, before reading this thread I wasn't sure what to think about Bush's administration or, particularly, the Iraq war. But now, after reading the arguments, I feel much more certain about what I believe. And to make this post legitimate, I might as well say what that is.

People kept bringing up the whole "Weapons of mass destruction" thing as a premise for entering the war. I don't think that was Bush's purpose at all, even in the beginning. That was just a guise that would appear valid so that he could go in and remove a government he didn't like. This isn't necessarily such a bad thing, however, as he didn't like the government because of how the citizens were treated, which is a perfectly valid concern. However, disguising the intention of the war in order to gain more support is something I cannot condone. If he had said it openly from the beginning, I'm sure more support from both inside and outside America could've been obtained. Obviously, I have no source for this claim, as it is an opinion I developed from reading this thread.

Still, I can't agree with it. I can see his point of view, but it's not our (I'm American) role to decide what other countries should do. Our military should not be used to instill our beliefs on other countries. We need one, obviously, because there are several groups that despise us. Even if they have no real war-making capability, if we have no military ourselves, they'll still be able to cause great harm to us. Thus, I support a military, but one that stays out of other countries' affairs and takes measures to stop incoming attacks against us. Not prevent them, as that would involve preemptively attacking another group, but to stop them as they are occurring. For instance, if we had another 9/11, shooting down the planes mid-flight, or better security measures to stop terrorists from even boarding. You get the idea.

The military, in my opinion, should be a deterrent, an item or entity used to discourage certain acts. In this case, those acts would be attacks on America.

Now, provided we somehow still manage to get ourselves attacked, I have no problems with us going out to eliminate those who attacked us. I supported the American effort to eliminate Al-Qaeda, because they are the ones who attacked us. However, I cannot support the effort in Iraq, because they posed no threat to us.

Now, some people will say, "But that shows weakness, that we aren't willing to go out and fight!" And to them I say this. What do you think our invasion of Iraq shows? "Oh look at us, we can't fix our own country so we're gonna go try to remove a harsh government in the Middle East to make us look strong!" It's the classic bully mentality, "I feel bad about myself so I'm gonna bully you to make me feel like I'm better than you." I don't mean to say the soldiers think this, but I think it's how Bush felt when he went into Iraq. Either that or he wanted to finish the job his father started in the first Gulf War.

These are just my opinions and I don't expect anyone to agree, but that's not what I'm trying to do by writing this. I just want to get my views out there

Forgot to say, even if I don't support the war, I support the troops we have fighting it. They're doing what they believe in, which is all I can ask. I'll do everything in my power to make things better for them, but I won't go over there to fight myself. I don't believe in the war.

EDIT: Edited for clarification.

Last edited by Relambrien; 05-28-2007 at 07:31 PM..
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Old 05-28-2007, 07:30 PM   #78
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Default Re: President Bush

I'm in the Airforce
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Old 05-28-2007, 09:00 PM   #79
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Default Re: President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by xWnLx Crisco View Post
One sad thing I have NOT seen in this whole thread is support for any of the soldiers.
Quote:
Also, a lot of presumption, and telling us what we do or do not believe, and what we are or are not capable off
We aren't discussing the soldiers, or their ability, dedication or drive. We are discussing the government and its decisions to carry out operations. I'm sorry you feel the need to connect the issue to the fact that there are people being made to deal with it, in order to use that as a means to deny other people's logical statements about whether the conflict -itself- is justified. OBVIOUSLY if operations are being carried out no matter what, we support the people who are made to do the work. We want every soldier to come back alive, and safe, and to imply that we think otherwise is incredibly insulting, arrogant and displays an incredible bias that anyone who is opposed to military action in Iraq is De Facto against the soldiers personally as well. To paraphrase Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you've been sent to do, but I will defend to the death your right to do your duty"

Quote:
These forums are so funny because you hide in a world you now nothing about but the stuff you hear from the internet or TV.
And you only ever give opinions on things about which you have complete, in-depth first hand knowledge? With this logic, nobody is EVER allowed to talk about ANYTHING that they aren't personally doing themselves. Where do you think the people who are -for- the hostilities get their information? Other aspects of the television and internet.

Quote:
Devonin your country doesn't have soldiers so I am not expecting anything from you.
So you criticize us for not showing respect to soldiers, and then denigrate an entire other army? Hypocrite.

The canadian military makes up 0.5% of our population. The american military makes up 1.3% of your population. You'll note that neither of these numbers is especially high. Just because we have a small military doesn't mean we have no military, we also have 1/10th your population.

Since 1947, the Canadian Forces has participated in more than 200 operations worldwide and has completed 72 international operations including the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan and the NATO stabilization force (SFOR) in Bosnia-Herzegovina. On any given day one third of the deployable force is preparing for, engaged in or returning from an overseas mission.

I'd appreciate it if you treat nations that are not your own with at least a modicum of respect. We're right in there fighting and dying alongside you, in every place you've gone that we agreed with. Just because we think this particular action is unjustified doesn't mean Canada has no respect for the american military. Please at least pretend to show us the same respect, this is a forum for intelligent discussion, not insults.
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Old 05-29-2007, 02:20 PM   #80
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Default Re: President Bush

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/war.../centurion.htm

So tell me this then 8shade8, if these groups are so gigantic, just how large are they? What percentage of the population of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and say...Saudi Arabia are 'evil terrorist insurgents' 10%? 20%? 90%? Give us a ballpark here. And short of the Taliban controlling Afghanistan (Which by the way, they claimed to have 12,000 members, a whopping 0.03% of the total population of Afghanistan, yeah you need a whole ton of people to take over a country) I deny that "they" are running "whole countries" when you give no evidence.

That's another thing: This is Critical Thinking, wherein you must support your statements with some kind of evidence, so lets have no more of this nonsense "I make a claim, and then claim that I'm "not allowed" to give any of the necessary evidence" style of discussion.

If you are privy to classified information, even implying to civilians that you know it is almost certainly a breach of military protocol. If you -CANNOT- support what you claim with any kind of evidence, just don't make such claims.


First of all, the information you are asking is FOUO, and probably has a Secret classification. I have not violated any clearances so far, but you are pushing it. Second, your not American, and I would get in even MORE trouble for telling you those numbers.

I understand you have your own opinion, but in the future please don't insult my job as a way to try to get information from me. I know what you are doing and I don't like it. Insulting someone is different that stating your opinion.

If you are so interested in these numbers and you want to see the evidence that I have, but cannot post, I encourage you to join your army in the Intelligence field. It is relatively easy to do so. I don't know about Canada, but in America, if you join the Army as intel, you can later work for the CIA or any other 3 letter secret organization, provided that you get some kind of degree in Psychology or Intelligence.

You want to get into intelligence? Relatively easy. People think it is hard or something, when it is very simple. Here is how you do it through the army:

1. Talk to a recruiter (he/she will work out any problems you have had in your past and they can help you get some stuff expunged)

2. Make it through BCT (basic combat training)

3. Go through intel AIT

4. Serve your country. Not only do you get to protect your country, you also get a great job experience to apply for intel, and you get infinite college money while in the army. (I don't know about other countries)

5. Get a degree in intel or psychology

And thats pretty much it. If you want to see what's going on and want to help, than thats the best route.

Tell you what, I won't state any more facts that I am not allowed to post statistics. Let me remind you that people can post whatever the hell they want on the internet: Fake facts, exaggerated stories, etc. The media is no better.


Now, if you are American, I can tell you how to access more true stories. Go and talk to your local recruiter, and tell him you are thinking about joining the army. Ask him to hook you up with something that is called an AKO account. Army Knowledge Online. You will be able to sign up at www.us.army.mil and then read about what is going on overseas. Now, only do this if you don't mind being constantly bugged by the recruiter.

Other than that, I will have to ask my drill sergeant of a reliable source of info about what is going on overseas, and I will then post it so all of you can read it. I hate it when people are uninformed about things. This is my solution. I will have a link for a reliable, civilian accessable website in a few days hopefully.
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