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Old 04-19-2004, 05:58 AM   #1
Specforces
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Default Do you believe perception alters reality?

There are some arguements for or against this that are noteworthy. Much of this philosophy can be found within the works of Ayn Rand. I like a lot of Ayn Rand's literature and think Objectivism has a lot to offer. One thing I have learnt though, is that it is pointless arguing with a Rand purist because more often than not they have learnt the Rand-scriptures off by heart and recite them when challenged and not a single thing would change their mind. I personally believe that the external world is separate from our perception but I would readily admit that it boils down to a basic belief rather than suggesting there was some logical reason why it had to be true.

People who believe that things only exist when we believe (or perceive) in them are called Idealists. "Esse est percipi" (to be is to be perceived) was the term coined by George Berkeley when putting forward his version of Idealism. He claimed that things only existed when they were perceived by one or more minds. Berkeley differed from hardcore Idealists because when challenged with the idea that it was nonsensical to say that things stopped existed when we closed our eyes, he responded by saying that God was perceiving everything in the Universe and so it always existed. A load of old codswallop if you ask me, but I can't prove that he is wrong.

The question that leads on from this is, as long as it seems like things are still existing outside of our perception, does it practically matter whether they are or not? If I am convinced that my bed exists when I leave my room, it makes no difference whether it does continue to exist or not because to me, I don't notice the difference.

At the end of the day, we can't prove it either way and so we have to live with what we are most comfortable with. If you choose to believe that things only exist when we perceive them, you travel the dangerous road to solipsism which is the belief that "I exist, and everything and everyONE else is a figment of my imagination." Apart from being very similiar to megalomania, it would be very difficult to live out a life if you truly believed yours was the only mind. To believe in an external reality is the one that gives me the most satisfaction, although sadly, I cannot prove it.

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Old 04-19-2004, 08:19 AM   #2
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ahhh, this is a fun topic, if anyone else comes to debate it. i am a dualist.

simply put:

too me, everything exists but it is only brought into meaning when a person directly observes it. i am also a pyrrhonist, i believe that one cannot actually know anything because it is clouded by our perseptions. eg. a blind person waking up and seeing black and white his reality would totally change, and if he then woke up the next day seeing color it would change again. reality is all in how we percive it.

long explanation: later, i have to go
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Old 04-19-2004, 11:07 AM   #3
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this is cool stuff...i dont know if this is off topic or not...but

ive been wondering, maybe i didnt exist yesterday, but i am given the memory that i did. maybe i was you yesterday specforces, but now im jamie and ive been given the memory that it has always been this way.

Maybe we dont have the freedom to do anything, but we're being told things we do were our decisions, and we're being told they were made with "free agency". A feeling that keeps us undercontrol, and a feeling that encourages us to continue this way.

maybe im just really messed up right now.

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Old 04-19-2004, 02:01 PM   #4
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This is a great quote:

Reality is only what we make of it.

So what it's saying is that no two people see the world the same way. I assume that when I leave my room it'll all be there when I get back. But who's to say? Can't something only exist if there is something there to make it exist? Ie: an eye to perceive object in question.

But I suppose the reality is that regardless of where we go, there's always, always something there to see/hear/perceive it (even if only on a microscopic level). Although what we assume can sometimes be wrong, all life assumes things will be there when we're not. IF we didn't, we'd never exist, we'd never develop past primates.

I fail to see how we'd ever develop without assumptions.
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Old 04-19-2004, 04:22 PM   #5
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In reply to Jam930's comment there is a popular philosophical belief called the 5 minute hypothesis which states that everythign came into existance 5 minutes ago and we were designed with memories and beliefs and everything like that. You might look into that idea
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Old 04-19-2004, 04:37 PM   #6
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Ayn Rand doesn't work because her philosophy argues that what can't be perceived doesn't exist. Thus, her philosophy discards the existence of God because he can't be scientifically perceived (the religious would argue that he can be perceived.) 1,000 years ago we couldn't detect atoms, far-away planets, or the like - it would now seem silly to argue that they don't exist. But, apply Rand's philosophy to those times, and her followers would claim that they ~couldn't~ exist.

Thus, either
a) Objectivism is flawed or
b) Objectivism thinks we know everything already.
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Old 04-19-2004, 04:57 PM   #7
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I look at this question from a more psychological level. If you're talking to somebody and you're confident, you appear to be confident. If you're weak and nervous, you're perceived as weak and nervous. Even if you aren't confident, you may appear to be so, and you may believe this yourself at the time.

For all we know we could be part of a an electron on an atom, on a fat old man's belly in a world where monkeys are superior and rats are acclaimed ballet dancers.
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Old 04-19-2004, 07:16 PM   #8
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heheh, i have a great quote for you jaimie,

Quote:
last night i had a dream that i was the most beautifull of butterflies, everything was real, or is it just that i am a butterfly that is dreaming I am Cheng Tzu"
if you want a really really interesting look at reality take a look at a guy called Pyrrho, it was his idea that absolutly nothing existed as we percive it, thus, you couldnt know anything at all, things could only appear to be that way. Pyrrho had to be followed everywhere because he wouldnt bother to get out of the way of things like carrages, he wouldnt bother avoiding angry dogs, or from falling into holes. to him the only thing that he trusted was his own mind, nothing else.

jamie this goes along with what you said, this is my particular views on life,

every person is only a creature of the multitude of choices we make every day. but each choice we make is loosely based on the choices we have made in the past. thus as you go along ini life you become more dead to the world, you stop having to think, you are more or less on auto-pilot, if you want a good example of this look at your parents. so as you most likely want to retain your mental freedom their is really only one thing to do, subject yourself to the most broad range of experiances and choices. each person is mearly a child of chaos.
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Old 04-19-2004, 08:14 PM   #9
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Better quote.

"Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man...or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi?"

Name the speaker and the work from which it was referenced. 100 credits to the first person who gets it, and names 5 major characters in the work to show they're not just Googling.
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Old 04-20-2004, 12:09 AM   #10
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10 points to you for the chrono trigger referance, do i really have to go through all the trouble of listing 5 chars from chrno trigger?

Flea
Frog
Magus
Melchior
Ozzie
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam930
this is cool stuff...i dont know if this is off topic or not...but

ive been wondering, maybe i didnt exist yesterday, but i am given the memory that i did. maybe i was you yesterday specforces, but now im jamie and ive been given the memory that it has always been this way.

Maybe we dont have the freedom to do anything, but we're being told things we do were our decisions, and we're being told they were made with "free agency". A feeling that keeps us undercontrol, and a feeling that encourages us to continue this way.

maybe im just really messed up right now.

=/
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:34 PM   #12
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...oh yeah that is kind of matrixish...
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:37 PM   #13
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I liked your old sig better Spec
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam930
...oh yeah that is kind of matrixish...
Only less crappy and slow.
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Old 04-22-2004, 10:25 PM   #15
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If perception altered reality then mind-altering substances would literally change the dimension you live in for a period of time, or invoke you with a 3rd eye, 6th sense, etc., as in seeing things that others don't. Just something to think about..
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Old 04-23-2004, 12:19 AM   #16
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I've often wondered about something like this. Like, is the blue I'm seeing the same blue as the one everyone else sees? And about when your eye sees an image, your retina (i think thats what does it) flips it over and such, so couldn't existence as an entirety be upside down? But then again, that's taking the conceded "we-are-man-we-are-the-highest-form-of-anything-there-is" view to the situation. So for all we know, WE'RE the upside down ones. Go figure. o_O


I love intellectual discussions. They can be so gratifying.
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Old 04-23-2004, 11:19 AM   #17
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I believe that, even if our brain didn't flip the image, we'd still develop everything the same - who cares if something/everything is upside down? After all, once our brain gets used to it, who cares?
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Old 04-23-2004, 11:28 AM   #18
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Agreed, it's just interesting to think about.
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Old 04-24-2004, 09:02 PM   #19
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the colors you see are very likely differant to you then anyone else. think about this, what if you could see in infrared/ultraviolet? how would that change how you think/act
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Old 04-24-2004, 09:28 PM   #20
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Heh, I love tricking people with that by asking them how many colors there are in a rainbow. 8 out of 10 people said 7.
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