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Old 03-18-2007, 07:40 PM   #21
aperson
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Default Re: What is human nature--is there such a thing?

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Originally Posted by perkeyone View Post
besides the definition of empirical knowledge makes it pretty clear that it is the only valid type.
I think you don't understand what I'm saying.

Besides, I could say that there exists some reasoning schema, let's call it S1, that defines itself as such: If aperson says some statement s is true, then s is true; this reasoning schema is the only valid reasoning schema.

S1 satisfies the same conditions of validity as 'empirical knowledge' and we certainly know that S1 isn't valid.

Also, I'm not talking in circles; I'm saying that observation is still limited by our perception. There is no way to justify anything we evaluate inside our perception because we can't justify our perception in some stronger system. Math, science, and empirical fields are all based on completely arbitrary axioms that are meant to mimic the real world, but we can't say that they themselves are objectively descriptive.
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Old 03-18-2007, 07:51 PM   #22
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Default Re: What is human nature--is there such a thing?

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Originally Posted by aperson View Post
I think you don't understand what I'm saying.

Besides, I could say that there exists some reasoning schema, let's call it S1, that defines itself as such: If aperson says some statement s is true, then s is true; this reasoning schema is the only valid reasoning schema.

S1 satisfies the same conditions of validity as 'empirical knowledge' and we certainly know that S1 isn't valid.

Also, I'm not talking in circles; I'm saying that observation is still limited by our perception. There is no way to justify anything we evaluate inside our perception because we can't justify our perception in some stronger system. Math, science, and empirical fields are all based on completely arbitrary axioms that are meant to mimic the real world, but we can't say that they themselves are objectively descriptive.
hmm your right i dont fully understand you
"if this statement is true then this statement is true"
the first thing about the schema does this fall into the same catagory?
"this is a lie"
about the second thing i understand that perception may be a bit cloudy for some (ex. crazy people) what they perceive is not necissarily true. But what defines an unclouded persective free of... well craziness i suppose?
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:34 PM   #23
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Default Re: What is human nature--is there such a thing?

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about the second thing i understand that perception may be a bit cloudy for some (ex. crazy people) what they perceive is not necissarily true. But what defines an unclouded persective free of... well craziness i suppose?
Aperson is not talking about crazy people, that is unless you think all people are crazy.

Our perceptions are how we view the world. If our perceptions of reality are wrong, then everything we base upon them are also incorrect. We assume what we perceive to be correct, though that might not necessarily be the case.
Hope that makes sense.
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:51 PM   #24
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Default Re: What is human nature--is there such a thing?

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Originally Posted by coberst
Math is useful when studying things that are pattern like. The object of study of the human sciences are humans and humans are not very pattern like.

Mathematical economics is not useful for studying human motivation and human nature.
It's funny, then, that the most basic principles of economics deal with so called "human nature." It's also odd that, with everything in economics being so closely entertwined with our "nature," it tends to be quite accurate in its predictions and analyses.

As revealed preference tells us, if it didn't work then there wouldn't be people using it.

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Old 03-18-2007, 08:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: What is human nature--is there such a thing?

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Originally Posted by RandomPscho View Post
Aperson is not talking about crazy people, that is unless you think all people are crazy.

Our perceptions are how we view the world. If our perceptions of reality are wrong, then everything we base upon them are also incorrect. We assume what we perceive to be correct, though that might not necessarily be the case.
Hope that makes sense.
yeah that makes sense i just used crazy people as an example also i thought i knew what ap was saying but it got jubled up in my head so i was trying to clarify i guess
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:17 AM   #26
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Default Re: What is human nature--is there such a thing?

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Originally Posted by The_Q View Post
It's funny, then, that the most basic principles of economics deal with so called "human nature." It's also odd that, with everything in economics being so closely entertwined with our "nature," it tends to be quite accurate in its predictions and analyses.

As revealed preference tells us, if it didn't work then there wouldn't be people using it.

Q

Economics is the science of making money. Economics makes objects of subjects so that these objects fit into the mathematics of making money. Modern economics is not about humnas as subjects but as about objects. But I am not very interested in speaking about economics, even that part that might take note of humans as subjects.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:27 PM   #27
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Default Re: What is human nature--is there such a thing?

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Originally Posted by coberst
Economics is the science of making money.
Economics, actually, is the study of decision making. In fact, it has most to do with people put in situations where very subtle choices are being made. It has been defined in more or less terms almost since modern economics as a science was first implemented in 1776. In fact, economics' involvement with money is coincidental: money is a very conveniently pre-existing measurement system.

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Originally Posted by coberst
Economics makes objects of subjects so that these objects fit into the mathematics of making money.
Yes, economics quantifies many things. However, the statistical values of objects are only significantly used in large generalized projects such as those in macroeconomics (which I honestly can't talk much about. I study microecon). Quantification isn't a bad thing, though. It provides the ability to discern magnitudes and more exact answers rather than rough approximations of a person's behavior.

Deirdre McCloskey has several works on economics as a science that you would most certainly enjoy. They explain the parts that you have a blantant misunderstanding of and might even agree with the parts you might have a partial understanding of. Wonderfully written material, you should really look into it. In fact, your essays could really gain a lot from looking at her style and borrowing some elements.

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Old 03-22-2007, 02:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: What is human nature--is there such a thing?

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Originally Posted by The_Q View Post
Yes, economics quantifies many things. However, the statistical values of objects are only significantly used in large generalized projects such as those in macroeconomics (which I honestly can't talk much about. I study microecon). Quantification isn't a bad thing, though. It provides the ability to discern magnitudes and more exact answers rather than rough approximations of a person's behavior.

Q
I have studied Macroeconomics to some extent. You want to be careful about you faith in economics as an iron clad science. When you cross into macro, there's less science and more art to it.

Exact answers are impossible because much of Macro is defining things that are too complex to define (Such as the potential output of an economy).

But generalities can be used to make it into a science. If interest rates rise, then the Federal Reserve can lower the Reserve ratio to allow banks to loan more money which, in theory, will lower interest rates.

My point is that you can make logical conclusions from abstract ideas. I haven't read all of the thread and where it's going so I'm not going to say what's being said is right or wrong but their approach isn't completely invalid just because they can't use the scientific method or some other acid test procedure to prove their conclusion.
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Old 03-22-2007, 03:38 PM   #29
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I checked my library and they have several of her books but they are all about British economic history, excepy one was "The Crossing". Would that be worth my reading?
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