Islam and terrorism

[Maid]

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

What?

What?

What?

What?

What?

What?

Did you just make that up? Because it sounds like you just made that up. In fact, I am going to go as far to say that you did make that up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rist_incidents

Do you realize how stupid that comment made you sound? You're from a Red state, aren't you?

Also, you all do realize that Allah is just the Muslim word for God, right? And that it's the same God of the Jews and Christians? And that Moses and Jesus are prophets of Islam? And that Muhammad had respect for all the people of the Book?

Let me clarify, apparently I did not cover all the bases, I tried, alas. Names for God are just semantics. What avg joe out there believes in what I just stated, blame the media but the most(Not all) terrorists who choose to show themselves are indeed believe themselves being Muslim and are being paraded by the media as the big devil and the fact that people die everyday from bombs, its been going for so long now that none really cares anymore and considers it a daily routine, it's quite scary what human can get used to. Again for vast majority comment(death toll over these years speaks for itself)

My comment is perfectly reasonable and not in the least bit stupid, and what is the so called red state comment has to do with anything? Kind of made me think hmmm, calling someones opinion stupid yet already having some preconceived bias that comes from what exactly?

That list by the way is quite irrelevant to this discussion, we are talking about the Now.

[jewpinthethird]

Originally Posted by Maid

That list by the way is quite irrelevant to this discussion, we are talking about the Now.

They invented this crazy thing called the scroll wheel...you should try using one sometime, you'd be surprised, but apparently not all the information on a webpage is present within the default resolution of the browser. I know, it sounds crazy, but it's true.

You said "Fact is, vast majority, if not all terrorists are Muslim." (If you didn't mean this, then why did you type it out?)

I said. "No, you're wrong. Your statement is not fact. You pulled it out of your ass. Here's a list of some documented terrorist attacks from before the 11th century to February 22, 2007. You'll notice that terrorism is not unique to Islam. Your statement was ignorant and offensive and it sounds like someone who is pro-George W. Bush would say (hence, Red-State)."

[dawgbarf]

The Hadith isn't considered the word of Allah, and the translations that you're using as evidence are being taken out of context, since you're taking words like "fight" to mean violence. The vast majority of people who practice Islam are not terrorists, so if Islam teaches terrorism, then why are the majority of muslims not terrorists? There have been terrorists of every religion, all using different excuses to justify their violence ("freedom" fighters for example), and the "muslim terrorists" are really terrorists who happen to be muslim (no relationship between Islam and terrorism) and take the Qur'an out of context to justify their actions. Suicide bombers and other terrorists have been brainwashed into thinking that Islam rewards their actions as martyrs.

[Maid]

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

They invented this crazy thing called the scroll wheel...you should try using one sometime, you'd be surprised, but apparently not all the information on a webpage is present within the default resolution of the browser. I know, it sounds crazy, but it's true.

You said "Fact is, vast majority, if not all terrorists are Muslim." (If you didn't mean this, then why did you type it out?)

I said. "No, you're wrong. Your statement is not fact. You pulled it out of your ass. Here's a list of some documented terrorist attacks from before the 11th century to February 22, 2007. You'll notice that terrorism is not unique to Islam. Your statement was ignorant and offensive and it sounds like someone who is pro-George W. Bush would say (hence, Red-State)."

Just to keep this straight, this is what I see. I never said terrorism is unique to Islam I only pointed out, that now terrorism is being tied as synonymous to Islam, by the media, they may over blow things out of proportion, do not report incidents that for Example Americans wouldn't want to see. People die everyday to bombs, it is an undisputed fact and various Islamic factions keep claiming they did it. I am able to see 2 sides still, still open to change my mind but there is got to be something more for that to happen.

[virtuoussinner]

This board went from someone seeking the consensus of opinions to people who are more than likely not Muslim jumping to conclusions about a religion that they are no part of.

[jewpinthethird]

Originally Posted by Maid

Just to keep this straight, this is what I see. I never said terrorism is unique to Islam I only pointed out, that now terrorism is being tied as synonymous to Islam, by the media, they may over blow things out of proportion, do not report incidents that for Example Americans wouldn't want to see. People die everyday to bombs, it is an undisputed fact and various Islamic factions keep claiming they did it. I am able to see 2 sides still, still open to change my mind but there is got to be something more for that to happen.

I don't disagree with you in that the American media has blown this who "terrorism = Islam" connection out of proportion. But to claim that most if not all terrorists are Muslims is flat out incorrect. We just hear about Islamic terrorism because of the sh*tf*ck job we did in Iraq.

[Maid]

Originally Posted by virtuoussinner

This board went from someone seeking the consensus of opinions to people who are more than likely not Muslim jumping to conclusions about a religion that they are no part of.

This is CT, the Authors intent was to gather what we think and even went to such heights as to name the thread "Islam and terrorism"
He never did say, those who "know" what is Muslim. So what if it doesn't conform to what you think ought be. Just seems ridiculous, ( all you are saying, those who don't know what is to be Muslim should shut up, are you from red state by any chance (omg a joke!) ? I do hope you know what CT stands for.

I also hope you realize that you contradicted yourself.

Originally Posted by TheWired724

I've noticed religious threads are discouraged around here. However i'm very curious about what the consensus is about Islam and violence. I'll do my best to support any claims i make, but first i would like to know what you guys believe.

[virtuoussinner]

I did indeed contradict myself... Thank you for reprimanding me. :P
Perhaps it could have been worded a bit better.
I'm from Texas so Red State yes, but I do not agree with Bush. A topic of conversation for a different thread.

[TheWired724]

Cool, you just established that it took approximately as long for the bible to be canonized into a book as it did the qur'an! Excellent! Heard of the Council of Rome? It took place almost 400 years after Jesus's death (and thousands of years after whatever happened in the old testament, presumably), and it was the first creation of an "official" set of books in the bible, as far as Christianity was concerned. Even that's a little iffy, since today's Catholic bible was only really finalized at the Council of Trent, which was in the 1500s if I recall correctly. And if you start saying that the Catholic bible is "not authentic", then, uh, well, there goes your justification for the bible as a more authoritative source than the qur'an - considering there's hundreds of versions of it. Great. At least the Qur'an is slightly more consistent since it was written by one person, supposedly.

I'm sorry, but you missed my point. It wasn't the fact that the Qur'an wasn't canonized until 200 after Muhamamd's death. It was that in those 200 years the Qur'an was oral recitation only existing in the minds of the first Muslims. Problem is these Muslims all dying in Allah's cause taking what they knew of the Qur'an with them. By the time the Qur'an became a book, over the course of 200 years much of the Qur'an was either forgotten or distorted. Thus contradicting Allah's claim the his scrptures are perfect and uncorrupted. You are correct about the Bible, however unlike the Qur'an, it had a paper trail. The Old Testament had been preserved and there were thousands of manuscripts containing the New Testament.

BUT! Besides all this, you are still totally missing my point, which is that all relatively old scriptures are obsolete and should be discarded. Someone who "interprets the scriptures in their proper context" is what we call a "fundamentalist", you know. A progressive religious person tries to interpret the scriptures of their religion as far as possible from their ancient and outmoded "proper context" as possible.

That's all fine and dandly except that one cannot properly understand a religion without researching its scriptures. Try discarding the Gospel while being a Christian....really, good luck with that.

[TheWired724]

Originally Posted by talisman

flatly incorrect.

I was talking about modern terrorism, which did begin largely as a reaction to the perceived lack of values inherent in the material Western culture. No one was reading the Qur'an and then decided to be a terrorist based upon what it said. Religion is USED by terrorists, but it does not endorse or somehow propagate terrorism.

So the plethora of passages in the Qur'an that advocate violence against non-Muslims aren't even remotely responsible for today's chaos? Those passages i quoted have nothing to do with it?

[TheWired724]

Originally Posted by dawgbarf

The Hadith isn't considered the word of Allah, and the translations that you're using as evidence are being taken out of context, since you're taking words like "fight" to mean violence.

Those two verses i quoted, i'll explained the context. ''Then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)''

''Fight'' and ''slay,'' these words denote a physical meaning.

The vast majority of people who practice Islam are not terrorists, so if Islam teaches terrorism, then why are the majority of muslims not terrorists?

Simple, most Muslims aren't aware of their scriptures, they don't know Muhammad's example. They're simply fed by what the media says.

There have been terrorists of every religion, all using different excuses to justify their violence ("freedom" fighters for example), and the "muslim terrorists" are really terrorists who happen to be muslim (no relationship between Islam and terrorism) and take the Qur'an out of context to justify their actions. Suicide bombers and other terrorists have been brainwashed into thinking that Islam rewards their actions as martyrs.

You know what, explain to me how i took those quotes out of context...please.

[TheWired724]

Also, you all do realize that Allah is just the Muslim word for God, right? And that it's the same God of the Jews and Christians? And that Moses and Jesus are prophets of Islam? And that Muhammad had respect for all the people of the Book?

Allah is not the God of the Bible, a simple comparison would show that. And although Moses and Jesus are mentioned as prophets in the Qur'an, their stories usually twisted and distorted from the accounts in the Bible...not good if they originated from the same being. And Muhamad had zero tolerance for the people of the book. He may have spoke somewhat highly of them in the beginning, but such statements were abrogated by passages like:Qur'an 5:17 "Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.'"

Qur'an 5:51 "Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other."

Qur'an 5:72 "They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.' But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.'"

Qur'an 2:61 "Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah's wrath."

Qur'an 4:47 "O you People of the Book to whom the Scripture has been given, believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming and verifying what was possessed by you, before We destroy your faces beyond all recognition, turning you on your backs, and curse you as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be executed."

Or from the Hadith: Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."

[jewpinthethird]

What translation of the Qu'ran are you using?

Also,

“At the time of Mohammed’s appearance,” writes Tor Andrae, “Arabian paganism was tending very strongly toward that type of belief which has been called polydaemonism” or an undeveloped polytheism similar to that of Greek Polytheism (Andrae 13). “Like his Greek counterpart, Zeus, Allah was originally an ancient rain/sky deity who had been elevated into the role of the supreme god of the pre-Islamic Arabs” (Aslan 6). “Muhammad’s message was an attempt to reform the existing religious beliefs and cultural practices of pre-Islamic Arabia so as to bring the God of the Jews and Christians to the Arab peoples” (Aslan 17).

Allah is a contraction of al-ilah. A literal translation of Allah is The God. In Islam there is only one God (Smith 222; Aslan 6), “the same god as Yahweh, the god of the Jews” and consequently the god of Christianity (Aslan 8).
---------
Andrae, Tor. Mohammad: The Man and His Faith. Trans. Theophil Menzel.
Salem: Ayer Company, Publishes, Inc, 1989.

Aslan, Reza. No god but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam.
New York: Random House, 2006.

Smith, Huston. The World’s Religions: Our Great Wisdom Traditions.
San Fransico: Harper Collins.

[dawgbarf]

A lot of the arguments you're using to demonize Islam are not based on concrete evidence. Just because you read that the Qur'an was passed on by word of mouth and distorted, doesn't mean that this is what actually happened.
Much of the violence we see in North American media comes from the wars which we are fighting in Islamic countries; you are committing a fallacy by associating violence with Islam, when really you should be associating violence with war. Granted, terrorism isn't the most civil way to kill people in a war (how civil can this be?), but the cause of this is not the teachings of Islam, and it seems very naive to blame the method of retaliation of people from countries being attacked on the Qur'an (certainly, there is a much bigger problem with the world, killing is killing).
I agree that it seems that at the moment, many terrorist acts are being carried out by misguided Muslims, but shouldn't we attribute this to the current socioeconomic and political positions of certain Islamic countries, since we have been shown by history that any oppressed people resort to violence, whether "right" or "wrong", to bring about change? Blaming this on the Qur'an would be using a short-sighted logic.

[talisman]

So the plethora of passages in the Qur'an that advocate violence against non-Muslims aren't even remotely responsible for today's chaos? Those passages i quoted have nothing to do with it?

correct. Only as far as convincing recruits and self-justification goes have selective passages been used.

This is not a case of someone reading the Qur'an and deciding to attack nonbelievers. Certain selective passages from the Qur'an are being used by terrorists to justify their cause to themselves and to their recruits, but the Qur'an did not inspire their mission in the first place.

Furthermore, it's also worth pointing out that not all of terrorism comes from radicalized Muslims. Look at ETA, '90s northern ireland, november 17, etc etc etc.

[TheWired724]

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

What translation of the Qu'ran are you using?

Yusuf Ali

“At the time of Mohammed’s appearance,” writes Tor Andrae, “Arabian paganism was tending very strongly toward that type of belief which has been called polydaemonism” or an undeveloped polytheism similar to that of Greek Polytheism (Andrae 13). “Like his Greek counterpart, Zeus, Allah was originally an ancient rain/sky deity who had been elevated into the role of the supreme god of the pre-Islamic Arabs” (Aslan 6). “Muhammad’s message was an attempt to reform the existing religious beliefs and cultural practices of pre-Islamic Arabia so as to bring the God of the Jews and Christians to the Arab peoples” (Aslan 17).

What's your point? I already know Allah's beginnings.

Allah is a contraction of al-ilah. A literal translation of Allah is The God. In Islam there is only one God (Smith 222; Aslan 6), “the same god as Yahweh, the god of the Jews” and consequently the god of Christianity (Aslan 8).

Have you even read either the Bible or Qur'an? The Bible and Qur'an contradict each other on nearly everything. Allah and Yahweh's personalities are also polar opposites. They're initial followers were the complete antithesis of each other. Sorry, these people don't know what the hell they're talking. If they really are the same God, then God is a schizo.

[das1ngerplayer]

If I'm right (I not in a thinking mood now so exuse me if I'm wrong) I think the muslims believe that only their religion is correct. Most of them want christians dead. That is why we are fighting in Iraq now. People like Osama want us dead because where christian and were americans.

[jewpinthethird]

Originally Posted by TheWired724

Have you even read either the Bible or Qur'an? The Bible and Qur'an contradict each other on nearly everything. Allah and Yahweh's personalities are also polar opposites. They're initial followers were the complete antithesis of each other. Sorry, these people don't know what the hell they're talking. If they really are the same God, then God is a schizo.

Congratulations, you've officially demonstrated the full extent of your ignorance and completely nullified every post you've made in this thread. Pull your head out of your ass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huston_Smith

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Aslan

[TheWired724]

Originally Posted by jewpinthethird

Congratulations, you've officially demonstrated the full extent of your ignorance and completely nullified every post you've made in this thread. Pull your head out of your ass.

Are you really this naive? You never did answer my question: have you ever read either the Qur'an or Bible? Yes, i'm aware the God of the Qur'an claims to be that of the Bible. But a little reading and some common sense will show that is an egregious lie. Allah and Yahweh, they're polar opposites. It's pretty simple. Yahweh had a son, Allah did not. Yahweh made man in his image, Allah made man in the image of a slave. Yahweh wants to have a personal relationship with his creation, Allah does not. Now think about their followers. Yahshua did not tell his followers to spread the good news through bloodshed. Muhammad had his Muslims conquer all of Arabia through the sword. Yahshua told his followers to love their enemies, Muhammad told his followers to kill them. And these are just a few examples, yet you call me ignorant and insist they're the same being.

[TheWired724]

Originally Posted by dawgbarf

A lot of the arguments you're using to demonize Islam are not based on concrete evidence. Just because you read that the Qur'an was passed on by word of mouth and distorted, doesn't mean that this is what actually happened.

The earliest Qur'an manuscript existing came from either the late 7th century or the 8th century. Up until then it was oral recitation. Try passing a message with complete accuracy through the course of 200 years. Things are bound to be forgotten or distorted.

Much of the violence we see in North American media comes from the wars which we are fighting in Islamic countries; you are committing a fallacy by associating violence with Islam, when really you should be associating violence with war.

You're suggesting the only reason they're fighting us is because we're fighting them? Have you ever heard of Sayyid Qutb? He was an Egyptian Muslim who visited America to study special methods of education. while he was impressed with the beauty of America itself, he felt the people lacked a spiritual life and put to much emphasis on material possessions. He felt this was influencing the Muslim world aswell. From one of his books he states: ''We should immediately eliminate this pagan influence and the heathen preesure on our world. We must overruen this current society with its culture and leadership of infidels. this is our first priorty: to shake and change the foundations of heathens. We must destroy whatever conflicts with true Islam. We should got out from under the bondage of what keeps us from living in the ways that Allah wants us to live.''

He goes on to say: ''Demolish all governments and organizations that are established by man. Eliminate human racism that exalts one over the other. The return of God's kingdom can only be established by a movement of power and the sword.''

Many terrorists groups follow his philosophy. He did not advocate war because of economic reasons or because America was fighting his country. It was simply because they were not under Islamic law and infuencing his fellow Islamic countries.

Granted, terrorism isn't the most civil way to kill people in a war (how civil can this be?), but the cause of this is not the teachings of Islam, and it seems very naive to blame the method of retaliation of people from countries being attacked on the Qur'an (certainly, there is a much bigger problem with the world, killing is killing).

Not one of the teachings of Islam? I suggest you take a look at Ishaq's Sira sometime.

I agree that it seems that at the moment, many terrorist acts are being carried out by misguided Muslims, but shouldn't we attribute this to the current socioeconomic and political positions of certain Islamic countries, since we have been shown by history that any oppressed people resort to violence, whether "right" or "wrong", to bring about change? Blaming this on the Qur'an would be using a short-sighted logic.

Well if that's the case, then why are they fighting America? If it's because of economic and political conditions, shouldn't they revolt against their own gorvernement rather then America?