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Old 01-13-2007, 03:33 AM   #61
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Default Re: Turning back time

You have to think, what if we are already living in a black hole?

We would never know, we've never seen what's inside one of them nor do we completely understand it's properties.

What we haven't seen does not exist.

~Tsugomaru
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Old 01-13-2007, 04:45 AM   #62
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Default Re: Turning back time

Electrons are time independant? You mean they lack mass of any kind? They must have mass since they exist... Anyway, if something is time independant, then you can't really say that it is impossible to travel faster than TIME.
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Old 01-13-2007, 06:33 AM   #63
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Default Re: Turning back time

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsugomaru View Post
You have to think, what if we are already living in a black hole?

We would never know, we've never seen what's inside one of them nor do we completely understand it's properties.

What we haven't seen does not exist.

~Tsugomaru
Um, we would know, trust me.


As for going faster then light to reach time travel to the past is true... but not in the ways you put it.
Say we traveled to Planet X at 3x the speed of light. If we looked up we would see us traveling backwards to planet earth - or the past. Although we can see the past as it is going to reverse, we can not change the past, if we tried to go back to change the past, it would just be present.
Confusing, no?

Time travel to the future = impossible.
Stopping time = possible, but we would just need infinite energy... :P
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Old 01-13-2007, 01:05 PM   #64
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Default Re: Turning back time

I've decided that since speed is relative to time, if you can somehow achieve negative speed, you can go back in time.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:22 PM   #65
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Default Re: Turning back time

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsugomaru View Post
You have to think, what if we are already living in a black hole?

We would never know, we've never seen what's inside one of them nor do we completely understand it's properties.

What we haven't seen does not exist.

~Tsugomaru
We would be dead.

We don't need to see one from the inside to know what would be inside of one. Black holes are just extreme gravitational distortions. There would be all kinds of heat and trapped light energy inside the event horizon. However, you're never going to get that far anyway.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:34 PM   #66
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
We would be dead.

We don't need to see one from the inside to know what would be inside of one. Black holes are just extreme gravitational distortions. There would be all kinds of heat and trapped light energy inside the event horizon. However, you're never going to get that far anyway.
I concur with Reach. Nothing Escapes the gravity of a black hole. Anything that comes near is streched and then ripped into nothingness. All mass is compressed into particles. Nothing will escape, and nothing lives.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:38 PM   #67
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Default Re: Turning back time

Reach, how can you confirm that?

We can theorize all these things, such as what is a wormhole, blackhole, or even an electron and what do the do. But we can't say they are concrete facts. However, because we see things the way we see, we can say that blackholes do exist and a blackhole does have a high level of gravity pull, one that smashes everything together in a very, very, dense mass. We can also say that dragons exist, but do they?

I mean, as far as I know, electrons do not exist, yet, we know they are there.

~Tsugomaru
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Old 01-13-2007, 03:23 PM   #68
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Default Re: Turning back time

Methinks that your talking a wee bit of rubbish.

"We can also say that dragons exist, but do they?"

No...

"However, because we see things the way we see, we can say that blackholes do exist and a blackhole does have a high level of gravity pull, one that smashes everything together in a very, very, dense mass"

Yep...

Sorry I was wrong, your actually talking perfect sense
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Old 01-13-2007, 04:00 PM   #69
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter View Post
Praytell, how does the First Law disprove any theory of time travel?
If I could send myself into the past and meet myself, I've created energy, breaking the first law of thermodynamics.

I didn't change the energy from one state to another; at that time period that I traveled back to, the energy was never used. It's still there in its original form. I just popped out of nowhere. For that interval of in between where the object was sent to and until the object is sent back, there's new energy. That's, of course, given nothing interferes and creates a paradox.

Granted, now that I think about it, if you look at time as a field, like the "4th dimension," or something, then you can dismiss that, I guess. But that would mean for every interval of time, there's energy just for that time period, and it's all equally distributed over this "4th dimension," until someone or something time travels.

It's pretty much just circular logic.
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Old 01-13-2007, 04:24 PM   #70
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Originally Posted by sherbtail View Post
Methinks that your talking a wee bit of rubbish.

"We can also say that dragons exist, but do they?"

No...

"However, because we see things the way we see, we can say that blackholes do exist and a blackhole does have a high level of gravity pull, one that smashes everything together in a very, very, dense mass"

Yep...

Sorry I was wrong, your actually talking perfect sense
I asked the dragon question to prove my point. Pretty much everyone in general can agree they don't, but that's the same thing with the black hole concept. If we can get everyone to say something exists on the basis of only some facts that may not be true, then it'll exist. If everyone says it doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist.

If you want, you can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mereological_nihilism

~Tsugomaru
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Old 01-13-2007, 04:44 PM   #71
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Originally Posted by tsugomaru View Post
I asked the dragon question to prove my point. Pretty much everyone in general can agree they don't, but that's the same thing with the black hole concept. If we can get everyone to say something exists on the basis of only some facts that may not be true, then it'll exist. If everyone says it doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist.

If you want, you can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mereological_nihilism

~Tsugomaru
No, we're not in the middle of a black hole.
And if you're saying black holes only exist because of "unprovable facts," you're wrong. We've seen black holes.


Get over it.
And if we were truly in a black hole, we would all be dead now.
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Old 01-13-2007, 04:51 PM   #72
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Default Re: Turning back time

But existence is such a fickle thing. What is stopping us from saying that all that is happening is but an imagination?

We've seen blackholes, but not inside them.

~Tsugomaru
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Old 01-13-2007, 04:57 PM   #73
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Default Re: Turning back time

We can not prove whether or not we live in an imagination, or if anyone around us is TRULY alive.
But, that has nothing to do with this topic.

Anyway - if we were inside a black hole, where would the jet streams be? They can't just disappear.

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Old 01-13-2007, 05:10 PM   #74
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Originally Posted by tsugomaru View Post
But existence is such a fickle thing. What is stopping us from saying that all that is happening is but an imagination?

We've seen blackholes, but not inside them.

~Tsugomaru
So assuming we're in a black hole, all the observations of the "universe" that the Earth is in are false? There have been calculations that show that the "universe" is expanding, (cited from "The Universe at Midnight"), so assuming we are in a black hole, the black hole is expanding. However, why is no new matter appearing in the black hole then? Even though light allows us to see one light-year farther every year, shouldn't a black hole cause irregularities in the movement of celestial bodies, so wouldn't we seem something erratic, not like comets (which can have a parabolic, elliptical, or hyperbolic orbits), but something like a comet with a random walk. Therefore, we can't be in a black hole because we aren't being distorted to the point of destruction.

Some more food for thought, if we are in a black hole (which we probably aren't), why is omega less than 1? (cited from "The Universe at Midnight") If in theory, we are in a black hole, then more mass should be swept into the black hole. Therefore, assuming the black hole stays the same size, omega should increase. However, it is decreasing. Therefore, the "black hole" is expanding, which can't be correct if more mass is being swept inside. The expansion should slow down, but it is speeding up. (Also cited from "The Universe at Midnight"). Why is the expansion of our "universe" speeding up if our "universe" is a black hole?
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Old 01-13-2007, 09:52 PM   #75
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Default Re: Turning back time

Dont want to burst anyones bubble but black holes are just a theory.
Oh wait, yes i do. Im just a bitch.

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Old 01-13-2007, 11:13 PM   #76
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Default Re: Turning back time

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Originally Posted by tsugomaru View Post
Reach, how can you confirm that?

We can theorize all these things, such as what is a wormhole, blackhole, or even an electron and what do the do. But we can't say they are concrete facts. However, because we see things the way we see, we can say that blackholes do exist and a blackhole does have a high level of gravity pull, one that smashes everything together in a very, very, dense mass. We can also say that dragons exist, but do they?

I mean, as far as I know, electrons do not exist, yet, we know they are there.

~Tsugomaru
You can confirm it by using equations we know work and by using simple, common sense.

Do not get started on the whole 'you cannot prove it' buisness, please.

Einsteins GR has been confirmed again and again, and solutions to such describe black holes nicely. Indeed, there are MANY things about a black hole which we cannot confirm.

However, I pointed out that it would be impossible to pass through the black hole (or even pass the event horizon). You can use some rather basic common sense and general knowledge of how gravity effects objects to show this. The event horizon of a black hole essentially is a point where the escape velocity is equivilant to the speed of light.

To give a tangible reference here, the escape velocity of Earth is some ~~25,000 miles per hour (EV refers to the speed which you must travel to escape the objects pull of gravity). The escape velocity at the event horizon of a black hole is 669,600,000 mph. Now apply a bit of common sense here and you can see clearly why you wouldn't even get to the event horizon; the gravitational force is just too strong.

You may ask yourself, if the gravitation field is so strong would it not just pull you in very quickly? And the answer is no. This is because of what are called 'tidal forces' (this is why tides exist). Essentially what this means is that the gravitational pull on one part of your body is going to be different than the pull on another part of your body. You will be completely ripped apart. As the gravitational force here increases so does the tidal force.

Also, since the escape velocity is the speed of light, no light can pass the event horizon. As such, you have a lot of energy trapped within the black hole. A lot...really, I mean it. You would be annihilated instananeously upon entry (even though this is again, impossible). I could extrapolate that the temperature inside is likely near that of the temperature during the big bang.

So really, there is no sense arguing it might be possible to enter a black hole, and come vis-a-vis with some parallel universe, or that we are living inside one of these fiendish givers of live.
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Old 01-13-2007, 11:54 PM   #77
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The escape velocity at the event horizon of a black hole is 669,600,000 mph.
I hear scientists are good at making up numbers. Im not atempting to disprove black holes cause im pretty sure they are real. But people just make that kind of **** up.
Sure its going to be something ridiculously high but there is no way to know the escape velocity of something that is a theory.

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Old 01-14-2007, 07:29 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Kekiz View Post
I hear scientists are good at making up numbers. Im not atempting to disprove black holes cause im pretty sure they are real. But people just make that kind of **** up.
Sure its going to be something ridiculously high but there is no way to know the escape velocity of something that is a theory.
Since light cannot escape black holes (which has been "proven" according to the observations of black holes indirectly), the escape velocity of a black hole is at least the speed of light. From (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_Light), the speed of light is about 670,616,629.384 miles per hour. Therefore, the escape velocity of a black hole is about 670,616,629.384 miles per hour. Unless you're assuming that the universe is not enough of a vaccum for you, in which case we might have to subtract a few thousand miles per hour, but the overall meaning is that nothing can escape a black hole. Not even light.
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Old 01-14-2007, 09:57 AM   #79
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There is still no way to know something like that. Its just an assumption. It could be twice that.
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:07 AM   #80
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Default Re: Turning back time

If it exists, this might be dangerous for yourself. If you time-travel back, there are actually 2 worlds: 1 in history with you, 1 in present with or without you. You always change the history when you time travel back. There always happens something to you.
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