Gay Marriage Unconstitutional?

[Chrissi]

Originally Posted by Pikachu655

Gay Marage should continue to stay legal becuse just becuse you like people of the same sex doesn't mean you're preverted or sick! The People that like the same gender shouldn't be labeled at all becuase of their belifes or likeings but for who they are! TAKE AWAY THE WORD GAY AND LEZBO DAMN IT!

If I were you, I'd leave CT before you get forcefully evicted.

Oh, and to contribute to the topic at hand: I think somebody tried to argue that you are born homosexual and nothing can change this, then giving eidence of this being true by way of their knowing their entire life that they were homosexual.

I'm bisexual. I would argue with you on this one. Nobody knows what makes a person homosexual. I think that it is a combination of things. Societal factors, the way you were raised, and possibly your biology and inherent psychology. I have no doubt in my mind that if I had been raised in a different culture, halfway across the world, think Africa... I might not be bisexual. I might be. But I might not. If I had been raised in the 30s I might not be bisexual. There are many factors. Like most things, it's complicated, and I don't think there is any ONE thing that makes a person homosexual.

[ckj846]

Well, even if you were raised with a different culture and in a different enviroment, you would still have the same feelings. It is whether or not you ACCEPT those feelings that people will view you differently. Like the whole drama of "coming out of the closet." People don't understand that I have been a homosexual as long as I can remember, and the only difference between the "me" now and the "me" before I came out is just that I'm being more honest with myself. Of course if you were brought up in a homophobic society, you would try and "mask" over your sexuality and conform to heterosexuality. I think that is the case with a lot of people that I know. I know it is impossible to prove, but when people won't even consider my word just because "oh you can't base your argument on an anecdote that hasn't been proven by science yet," it just makes me feel insignificant. Sure, outside factors affect how you PORTRAY YOUR SEXUALITY but you can't sway from straight to gay because your dad was gay or you were raped. You can't prove it scientifically, but not everything can be proven by science. Just like not everything can be proven with religion.
O_o

[Chrissi]

I have to say, most of that was the most idiotic pile of drivel I've heard in a long time.

Culture makes a human. Humans are our culture. Without culture, we are nothing. Humans are a social animal. If you think you are not wholly and entirely affected by the culture you identify with, you have a lot to learn. No, if I lived in a different environment and grew up in a different place, I would probably not have the same feelings - the only way that would happen is if homosexuality were 100% biological, a la the colour of your hair or skin, which I highly doubt.

I'll take this into the context of me personally. I dont know what it is about me that makes me feel I fit into the vegetarian philosophy. I'm a vegetarian. I have no idea why I'm a vegetarian and most people aren't. If I were living in like, the 1500s, as a dirt poor peasant, I am almost certain I would not be a vegetarian, and I would also have no desire to be one. I wouldn't "feel the same". I would be an entirely different person. We are not entities entirely individual, placed down on this earth in funny patterns - we ARE the culture we live in. We live it. We are it. If your culture tells you something, you do it, because you don't know anything else.

Now, can you prove to me that homosexuality isn't culture based?

[aztothaman]

i say we don't worry about it here, lets just play some games.

[ckj846]

This debate really is pointless because the idea of homosexuality is vague in general. Of course if I believe that homosexuality is not a choice, I'm going to believe that culture has little to do in swaying sexuality. You may think whatever I say is garbage, but I would just say the same thing right back at you. Humans have primal urges and instincts. Sexuality is a human trait. Even if you were brought up in an extremely homophobic society, you would STILL have those feelings. You might try and fool yourself into thinking you are heterosexual, but you'll still have that natural attraction towards the same sex. Look at it from the other side. What makes people heterosexual? It is natural instinct to know your own sexuality and to basically, reproduce. It is a natural attraction between opposites. If heterosexuals were brought up in an extremely homosexual enviroment, are you saying there would be no more heterosexuals and everyone would "turn" homosexual? You know that is not true. Homosexuality is NOT affected by enviroment, only your behavior in reflecting your sexuality is. If I was brought up in a homosexual enviroment, I would idolize homosexuals and mimic what they did. I would probably be one of those flaming homosexuals who wear rainbows and flashy colors in order to get attention. I'm not like that because I've kept my sexuality to myself for a very long time from fear of oppression and persecution. Was I a homosexual when I was younger? Yes. Do I act differently because of my enviroment and the values that I was taught when growing up? Yes. My point really is, it all depends on the definition of homosexuality, whether you define it as how you act or your preference of the genders from when you first found your sexuality.

You can't compare homosexuality to vegetarians, that is a completly irrelevant comparison. The reason you are a vegetarian is probably due to some media exposure like with the whole "animal cruelty" and the age of humans where meat is no longer necessary. You may take offense to that and say I'm leaping to conclusions, but that is exactly what you did. It is proven that however we were raised factors in to how we are as individuals and people. You can't record every little detail and influence in your life and document it, it is impossible. My point really is, you take in things and you alter your own way of thinking and your own actions in order to adapt to this "mold" that society has given us. I'm sure you have eaten meat before, and why is that? Becuse the media influenced you to eat it and you saw others eating it. Why did you become a vegetarian? Because of religion? You thought it was healthier for your body? You wanted to be different? Vegetarians cannot be compared to homosexuality AT ALL.

Contradictory statements don't make great debates. They are pointless flames against one another until someone just finally gives in and stops fighting. I think homosexuality is not a choice. You most likely think that homosexuality is a choice based on outside factors. Nothing we can do will change each others' opinions on the topic. I've stated my thinking and reasoning and you have stated yours. Leave it at that.
O_o

[Chrissi]

I tried reading the first two paragraphs, but it made my head hurt. I'll read it if you rephrase it such that it's easier to read. I am really having a hard time with that.

I did read the last paragraph though, and I'm wondering - if you don't want to argue, why are you posting in CT?

[ckj846]

Sorry about that. I was just trying to say that you contradicting my statements seemed more in an attempt to just prove me wrong. And my thoughts are really jumbled right now, I'll try to post when I have a better sense of clarity because I am quite confused myself on my sexuality. Not whether I'm homosexual or heterosexual, but just how my sexuality comes across to others. God I sound like a pussy but I'll post about it tomorrow when I'm not as tired.
O_o

[FoJaR]

that's because she thinks that you are wrong.

[ckj846]

At least I have an opinion instead of just commenting on everything and being a total moron in terms of debating and staying on topic.
O_o

[jamuko]

Cam, to clarify a little, I don't think Chrissi is really saying that homosexuality is a choice (please correct me if I'm wrong). She's just saying it's influenced by a lot of things like the culture we live in, which isn't really an opposition to your argument if you think about it.

There are many things that make up who we are that we don't really have any control over, such as the food we like and the sense of humor we have. I don't think you'll find someone who will call those things "choices", but they're mainly formed by our culture rather than being biologically rooted, and I think that's the category Chrissi is saying sexuality fits into.

Biological or not, it doesn't really matter enough to argue it, because I think we agree that it's not a conscious decision by any means. =)

[FoJaR]

Originally Posted by ckj846

At least I have an opinion instead of just commenting on everything and being a total moron in terms of debating and staying on topic.
O_o

you're not talking about me are you?

[Kilgamayan]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

tnot for me. religion always has a place.

That's your problem, then, because a discussion of whether gay marriage should be legalizied in America or not does not allow for any arguments based in religion simply because of separation of church and state.

This is not to say that use can't use morals and tenets that can be found in any given religion as potential bases, of course. You're just not allowed to cite their religious origin as a reason why they should be followed.

If you can make a religion-less argument as to why gay marriage should not be legalized, then I'll be more than willing to continue this discussion.

[Grandiagod]

Religion has nothing to do with the Constitution except the guaranteed freedom of it.

Therefore, Fojar, if your argument is purely religious with no other standing, then gay marriage would be constitutional.

[ToshX]

Wow, long posts. It's related to me and even I cannot read it.

As for homosexuality being a choice, well, I used to be completely straight, then I kind of converted to being bi. I dunno, if I didn't feel so much better this way, I'd likely be able to go back.

As far as I know, it's a choice. Like drugs or smoking, it CAN be stopped/changed, at least from what I've seen. Similar to drugs/smoking, it is pleasurable, but for some people, it may get to the point where they notice it is harmful(not that bi/gay is a harmful thing) or they just dislike it, and want to stop.

People may say that they cannot stop, but technically, they CAN, their minds just aren't letting them. With the aid of other things and the extreme want to stop, they can stop.

Really, know why people convert or convert back? Come to think of it, it CAN'T be a thing you're born with as far as I know.

[FoJaR]

Originally Posted by Grandiagod

Religion has nothing to do with the Constitution except the guaranteed freedom of it.

Therefore, Fojar, if your argument is purely religious with no other standing, then gay marriage would be constitutional.

i'll say that it isnt unconstitutional. at least for now.

but i've never been arguing that "gay marriage" was unconstitutional, i've been arguing that it's illogical.

that "gay marriage" is an oxymoron.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

i'll say that it isnt unconstitutional. at least for now.

but i've never been arguing that "gay marriage" was unconstitutional, i've been arguing that it's illogical.

that "gay marriage" is an oxymoron.

Who cares if it's illogical to you?

Some people have weird foot fetishes. Would you like to make weird foot sex illegal just because you don't wish to partake in it?

Really, it only affects one person and that's the homosexual individual. It's not like there will be more homosexual people because of it being legal, and it's not like there will be an overt change in behavior of those homosexual people. All it would do is give legal rights to gay life partners that they wouldn't have otherwise and that do nothing but help they're loved ones. It has a 0% affect on anyone else, but helps them a lot.

[FoJaR]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Who cares if it's illogical to you?

Some people have weird foot fetishes. Would you like to make weird foot sex illegal just because you don't wish to partake in it?

nope, not at all. i'm not trying to say that homosexuality should be illegal either. next.

Really, it only affects one person and that's the homosexual individual. It's not like there will be more homosexual people because of it being legal, and it's not like there will be an overt change in behavior of those homosexual people.

not trying to change homosexual people, they make their own decisions.

All it would do is give legal rights to gay life partners that they wouldn't have otherwise and that do nothing but help they're loved ones. It has a 0% affect on anyone else, but helps them a lot.

it' changes the definition of marriage and that affects me personally.

[Grandiagod]

Originally Posted by FoJaR

it' changes the definition of marriage and that affects me personally.

Really? How is two gay people getting married going to affect you?

[Excoelis]

gays r weird

[Afrobean]

Dear Mr. FoJaR,

Arguing semantics is useless. It's just a word. It seriously doesn't matter. Like has been said before, gay marriages would be state issued and would have no affect at all on what you would consider to be legitimate marriages (ie religious based ones).

Sincerely,
Afrobean