What's happening in here?

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: What's happening in here?

Yes, judgment is the process involved in moving submitted files to the Queue after a batch period closes.

[Trumpet63]

Re: What's happening in here?

Yes, judgment is the process involved in moving submitted files to the Queue after a batch period closes.

Then, yes, I think judgement should be removed, therefore making the batch mostly pointless. Thank you for clarifying.

[YoshL]

Re: What's happening in here?

uh

you've got it backwards i think, you'd remove the batch and just have files judged i would think

removing judgement is akin to saying accept every file into the game i think

[Trumpet63]

Re: What's happening in here?

[...] We can track file submission, do bookkeeping, and monitor permissions without having this whole in-depth analysis about whether a song is good or not. Similar to osu, just let the community deal with giving songs ratings and identifying issues.

Uhh nope, I think judgement is the part that's holding us up, and it's not entirely necessary. I don't think osu is great, but we could improve on their system if necessary.

EDIT: Feel free to call me crazy

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: What's happening in here?

Then, yes, I think judgement should be removed, therefore making the batch mostly pointless. Thank you for clarifying.

Removing judgment means there isn't a batch. Like YoshL said, it would literally just be submit and put into the game.

[Trumpet63]

Re: What's happening in here?

Yeah, so... You're still just stating what I said.. so I don't know if I need to clarify still. I was defending MinaciousGrace.

FFR gets criticized by the Stepmania community all the time by not having good enough variety, and sometimes crappy files are still fun to play and make you better at the game. If we don't host the files people want to play, they'll find them elsewhere, or, in the case of FFRmania, mod the game so that those files can be played.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: What's happening in here?

You're going into OWA's idea of increasing the difficulty spectrum. He is aware of players moving on to games like osumania or playing harder songs in Stepmania. Look back at this post he made.

There's also a very serious issue that has been brought up to me that I'm looking into.

[MinaciousGrace]

Re: What's happening in here?

The bookkeeping is necessary to monitor what users have submitted, monitor permissions on submitted files, and look at files accordingly for issues.

shit you got me dude it's definitely not possible to do this without the current system

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: What's happening in here?

shit you got me dude it's definitely not possible to do this without the current system

What are some suggestions you have? You've stated in three posts that the batch system is inefficient but still haven't proposed a direction to take it. This was never a competition, I'm just trying to see what you wanted to add.

[noname219]

Re: What's happening in here?

About the batch/queue being stuck, here's the idea :
1. Create a new small engine that any users can upload their simfiles (make someone review them before to check if they have permission - or create an automatic system if you have the courage to)
2. Only veterans will have access to this engine, they can play each files and give a note on the files they like (or add comments if they see something that can be improved), scores are not counted
3. Take the 3-4 best files every week or keep the best ones for tournaments

What this will do...
-No limit on batches anymore
-A larger variety of files
-Give a meaning to the veteran title and involve them into the batch process
-Encourage people to actually be interested in getting the veteran title
-Plus a lot more I'm not thinking right now...

Also, people won't be able to create 50 accounts to upvote their submissions because of the veteran title thing.

[Trumpet63]

Re: What's happening in here?

You're going into OWA's idea of increasing the difficulty spectrum. He is aware of players moving on to games like osumania or playing harder songs in Stepmania.

Yep, I mean, if he really wants to do all that, go ahead. It sounds like a lot of work, and I STILL don't think that's a solution, because we'll probably just have to make all those files ourselves, if past behavior is any indication. Or if we don't make them ourselves, with the batch team already being taxed to its limit, I think that's hard to look at as anything but wishful thinking. You want brand new files in the game AND we're like a year behind in the batch. I don't think those ideas are compatible.

Also, it's kind of unfair you're the only one left to talk Dossar, I really don't expect you to have all the answers.

EDIT: not bad noname, although the whole creating a new engine thing is iffy

[Crazyjayde]

Re: What's happening in here?

Plus a lot more I'm not thinking right now.

Community involvement

[Frank Munoz]

Re: What's happening in here?

About the batch/queue being stuck, here's the idea :
1. Create a new small engine that any users can upload their simfiles (make someone review them before to check if they have permission - or create an automatic system if you have the courage to)
2. Only veterans will have access to this engine, they can play each files and give a note on the files they like (or add comments if they see something that can be improved), scores are not counted
3. Take the 3-4 best files every week or keep the best ones for tournaments

What this will do...
-No limit on batches anymore
-A larger variety of files
-Give a meaning to the veteran title and involve them into the batch process
-Encourage people to actually be interested in getting the veteran title
-Plus a lot more I'm not thinking right now...

Also, people won't be able to create 50 accounts to upvote their submissions because of the veteran title thing.

Interesting. It'd be nice if we could put a rating system in the engine itself (4/5 arrows) to see who likes what.
only downside to it is
-some vets may not take it so seriously
-might be too much privilege for vets to be able to play files before others
(though it's not like we release the charts a week after getting votes in)
(we can also have the testing open for a week, every week. So it'll be two songs added in game. And two new songs to test or something)

edit: It doesnt have to be a final say in what gets in the game, but it can help wash out the bad files from the good. making the workload for the advanced judging team easier.
So, as you said, it gets the community more involved and feel just that much more needed/important in the future of FFR WITHOUT the added pressure of being an admin.

[hi19hi19]

Re: What's happening in here?

What you are describing is more or less the Osu system, with the alternate engine being for "unranked" files which are then "ranked" by certain privileged users before being put into the main game and having scoreboards associated with them, etc.

This system is not without its own drawbacks.

[noname219]

Re: What's happening in here?

I'll step up for Noname (my brother) to say he's done tremendous work handling and gathering song and in-game data information (corrections, permissions, wiki etc.) but have felt no impact for doing so since the start. I've personally dropped in to help when I could even though it's hard to keep up with him and generally felt the same. A handful (bmah, prawn, hi19, goldstinger, eze) were also keen to help push the thing forward. The wiki was built basically to showcase the changes that could be implemented. It's basically ghost-maintenance and kind of a statement to our involvement and interest with the site.

I understand what you're feeling towards the work we're doing, but I'm sure it will just take my approval that things are in order to implement the changes in the system. The reason isn't because people in power (you name them) are not willing to change stuff in the song list, but because they are unsure of the status of the project (is it complete? what songs are corrected? etc.)

I mean sure, I have put hundred of hours into this, probably more than the total amount of time I've actually played FFR, but believe me, I would have stop as soon as I knew that things would never change. The only thing that bothers me will be the moment to implement those corrections; from my point of view, I'm the best qualified here to modify the song list because I know more than anyone what changes needs to be done in the song list. I just need a few more inputs for missing information, I'll list those when I get to it (will drop them in the song corrections thread) and ask to a few users/musicians directly.