Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[Squeek]

The one thing that angers me more than anything else is how you REPEATEDLY flame everyone here who doesn't play casually in your subtle little ways.

Since when was playing games for hundreds of hours "casual" gameplay? Just because I ****ing hate competition doesn't mean you can compare me to ****ing Peggle players on PopCap.

There's a huge ****ing difference between putting spin on a ball during a sport and exploiting graphical hiccups that the developers didn't intend on putting in the game. When spin was introduced to sports, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

But, again, here's the difference. Are you going to be playing soccer in your backyard against your 5-year old brother arcing kicks past him every shot? Hell no. You're going to play normally. You save your special kicks for competition against people who are good enough to actually defend against it.

And Relambrien, there is a time and a place for this discussion, and it's right now. I'm tired of you always trying to quell debates. Debates are what forums are all about. If it gets out of hand, I'll stop it as a moderator. As it is now, I'm participating as a Smash Bros. fan.

[l2awr]

Originally Posted by Squeek

The one thing that angers me more than anything else is how you REPEATEDLY flame everyone here who doesn't play casually in your subtle little ways.

Since when was playing games for hundreds of hours "casual" gameplay? Just because I ****ing hate competition doesn't mean you can compare me to ****ing Peggle players on PopCap.

There's a huge ****ing difference between putting spin on a ball during a sport and exploiting graphical hiccups that the developers didn't intend on putting in the game. When spin was introduced to sports, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

But, again, here's the difference. Are you going to be playing soccer in your backyard against your 5-year old brother arcing kicks past him every shot? Hell no. You're going to play normally. You save your special kicks for competition against people who are good enough to actually defend against it.

And Relambrien, there is a time and a place for this discussion, and it's right now. I'm tired of you always trying to quell debates. Debates are what forums are all about. If it gets out of hand, I'll stop it as a moderator. As it is now, I'm participating as a Smash Bros. fan.

No one is flaming lol. Your just getting upset. I asked you a question and you didn't even answer it. I'm trying to see where you are coming from.

What is wrong with using techniques against people who do not know how to do them?

Please be mature about it too lol. Don't get upset.

[Squeek]

Originally Posted by l2awr

What is wrong with using techniques against people who do not know how to do them?

Let me ask you this. Have you ever punched someone in the face, then taunted them for not knowing how to guard their face?

That's using a technique against people who don't know how to do them, isn't it?

That's what it feels like when someone uses a technique that verges on the edge of cheating in order to improve their game, whether it be a video game or a sport. That's also a technique that is totally acceptable in one practice and totally unacceptable in another. If you were a professional boxer, for example, punching your opponent in the face during a match is not only allowed, it's necessary.

This is the distinction I'm trying to make here! I don't think it's an acceptable practice to utilize glitches in a non-competitive environment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Go ahead and use your glitches. Use them all day long. I do not care. Just don't do it against random people. You'll just be punching them in the face for no reason. What's the point of using a glitch against someone who doesn't know how to use it? To win? Why do you care if you win or not against someone you'll never even know? Random Brawl matches are 100% anonymous. All you're doing by using glitches in Brawl is boosting your own ego.

Originally Posted by Relambrien

And the one thing that angers me more than anything else is how YOU repeatedly flame everyone here who doesn't agree with you in your subtle little ways. In case you didn't notice, you're looking down on everyone who doesn't play your way. If you would just recognize that your way isn't the best way, then there wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem as there is.

Hell no.

I'm not looking down on your playstyle. I am just saying, don't do it against random people. I've seen what exploiting glitches in mainstream games can do for the game. Have you heard of how many people absolutely refuse to play Mario Kart DS online because of the snakers? I can give you a list of thousands.

I don't mind if you exploit glitches at home, at a friend's house, online with friends, at competitions, etc. Go right ahead. I realize that as a result of this (and other things like keeping items off, but that's a horse that's been dead for ages now), I will never be able to compete in Brawl. And I'm fine with that. I've established that my playstyle prohibits me from playing this game competitively.

A casual player is someone to whom playing itself is fun, and places winning and self-improvement at a much lower level. You said that winning all the time is boring. It wouldn't be to a competitive player, thus you are casual.

There are two overarching groups of players of any game: casual and competitive. If you hate competition, you cannot call yourself anything but casual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_game

There are more demographics in the gaming industry than just "those who play to win, no matter what" and "those who play to have fun". In fact, since I'm neither of those, I'm either an anomaly or someone you just didn't think about. It's the latter. I'm a gamer. There are millions of people out there just like me. People who don't race to see who can beat a game first and people who don't play for 10 minutes at a time. Gamers.

Don't ever call me a casual gamer again. Yes, I do play Minesweeper, and I sure as hell guarantee my times are better than yours. That's one game I actually do play competitively in, albeit only in my small group of friends. I still have the best posted time on FFR from what I remember. 142 on Expert. Good luck.

I'm not going to be playing against my 5-year old brother period, because that isn't fun. Unless I'm teaching him to play, where I will teach him to arc kicks as soon as I can.

And besides, that isn't even an accurate analogy. A better one would be like this. If you're playing in a soccer match both with and against people you don't know and have never seen before, are you going to handicap yourself? No, you're going to do everything you can.

You totally missed my analogy. Practicing the sport in your backyard isn't competitive playing! Playing against random people in a match IS competitive playing. See my boxing analogy above.

Sakurai himself is endorsing competitive play. You cannot claim that the developers don't want a competitive atmosphere: they want the game to go in whatever direction the community takes it.

Now, I believe you also said that you don't want people using advanced techniques in random online play, correct? Well, why would people go online to play against RANDOM people if not to compete? If you're going to focus on just having fun, there is absolutely no better way to have fun than to play with your friends. By going online, you agree to be subject to whatever your opponents throw at you, and you have no right to claim they can't do something, so long as it isn't a game-breaking glitch or other form of cheating. Glitches which help enhance the competitive atmosphere need to be encouraged, not suppressed.

Sakurai is endorsing all play. If you get your kicks out of winning in a match and giving your opponent no chance to even compete, like snakers in Mario Kart DS, then please, inflate your ego. Just so you know, Mario Kart DS has turned from "who knows how to pick up items, throw them at the right time, and retain a lead" to "who can press LRLRLR while holding the shoulder buttons faster than the other guy" In a match with 7 normal racers and one snaker, the snaker will always win. ALWAYS. You could throw lightning, blue shells, whatever. The snaker doesn't even have to pick up items, which is the core gameplay element of the game. He'll always win.

I'll admit right now that I know practically nothing about wavedashing. It's something that enables you to move faster. That's all I know. Which makes it pretty much exactly the same as snaking, just in a different context. In item matches, whoever can run to the item the fastest will get it and have the upper hand. In close-combat, whoever can quickly get in and out of the frey will have the upper hand. In a big stage, whoever can get from one side to the other in order to finish off an opponent will have the upper hand. What wavedashing does is nullify some of the character balance that existed in the original game. Let's say every character has 10 points to spend in various stats similar to the 5 points in Mario Kart. Bowser has about 9 in Power, but only 1 in Speed. With wavedashing, that Power doesn't drop, but speed increases. This shifts the balance. Suddenly a character with 1 in Power and 9 in Speed is useless. Other classes can match his speed and even overtake it. You've exceeded the scale of 10. To me, that's a big enough glitch to warrant a cause for removal. And hey, as it turns out, Sakurai and his team actually DID remove wavedashing. Probably for exactly the same reasons I just said!

Squeek's bottom line:

I would absolutely love to play this game with anyone on this website who posts on the forums. I would absolutely hate to turn it into a contest. Worse, a contest to see who can mash certain button combinations to slightly improve the performance they get from their character to gain a competitive edge against people who really don't care to whittle down the skin on their thumbs just to move 1/100th of a second faster.

NOT Casual. NOT Competitive. Just Gaming.

[Relambrien]

Originally Posted by Squeek

And Relambrien, there is a time and a place for this discussion, and it's right now. I'm tired of you always trying to quell debates. Debates are what forums are all about. If it gets out of hand, I'll stop it as a moderator. As it is now, I'm participating as a Smash Bros. fan.

Fine then. I'll go all-out then. And I'm not trying to quell debates. I'm trying to quell a flamefest that's been done so many times in this thread already that there's really no point in beating the flaming horse again.

Originally Posted by Squeek

The one thing that angers me more than anything else is how you REPEATEDLY flame everyone here who doesn't play casually in your subtle little ways.

And the one thing that angers me more than anything else is how YOU repeatedly flame everyone here who doesn't agree with you in your subtle little ways. In case you didn't notice, you're looking down on everyone who doesn't play your way. If you would just recognize that your way isn't the best way, then there wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem as there is.

Also, I don't think that l2awr is flaming those who play casually, but those who play casually and claim that it's the best way to play, condemning competitive play because it uses "illegal" techniques. I don't care how people play, but I care when they look down on others' playstyles because they don't play the same way.

Originally Posted by Squeek

Since when was playing games for hundreds of hours "casual" gameplay? Just because I ****ing hate competition doesn't mean you can compare me to ****ing Peggle players on PopCap.

A competitive player strives to get better using any methods deemed legal, to win. Because that's what's fun for them. They love competition. A casual player is someone to whom playing itself is fun, and places winning and self-improvement at a much lower level. You said that winning all the time is boring. It wouldn't be to a competitive player, thus you are casual. I beat my brothers pretty much 99% of all matches in SSBM, and I still have fun. Lots of it, because I'm winning.

There are two overarching groups of players of any game: casual and competitive. If you hate competition, you cannot call yourself anything but casual.

Originally Posted by Squeek

There's a huge ****ing difference between putting spin on a ball during a sport and exploiting graphical hiccups that the developers didn't intend on putting in the game. When spin was introduced to sports, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

When wavedashing was introdcued to Melee, people noticed it. They checked if it was against the rules, and the rule-checkers said it was OK.

Originally Posted by Squeek

But, again, here's the difference. Are you going to be playing soccer in your backyard against your 5-year old brother arcing kicks past him every shot? Hell no. You're going to play normally. You save your special kicks for competition against people who are good enough to actually defend against it.

I'm not going to be playing against my 5-year old brother period, because that isn't fun. Unless I'm teaching him to play, where I will teach him to arc kicks as soon as I can.

And besides, that isn't even an accurate analogy. A better one would be like this. If you're playing in a soccer match both with and against people you don't know and have never seen before, are you going to handicap yourself? No, you're going to do everything you can.

You people who condemn so-called "advanced techniques" because they are glitches are so closed-minded about what a glitch is. You automatically think it's something bad, horrible, and illegal. Well guess what? It isn't. A glitch is merely an unintended result of game code. In the case of advanced techniques, it's a fortuitous mistake. The introduction of advanced techniques increased the depth and competitive value of Melee far beyond what it could've been otherwise, with absolutely NO game-breaking effects. There was no "Instawin" button. People had to learn advanced techniques and apply them properly to win, and the variety that exists within advanced techniques helped the game so much that it's mind-boggling. Why can't you see that? Why can't you see that glitches can be beneficial, and thus shouldn't be discarded simply because they're glitches?

You don't seem to realize that how the developers made the game isn't necessarily the best way to play. See: Half-Life 2 and Garry's Mod. And also, here's a quote from Masahiro Sakurai, head developer of SSBB:

Originally Posted by Masahiro Sakurai, translated by Nate Bihldorff

But still, it’s not like I want everyone to play through every single portion of the game. I think I’d rather you played small portions of the areas you find interesting a little at a time.

Whether you choose to go solo or play with friends, you’re covered, because Brawl is about playing the way you want to play.

Sakurai himself is endorsing competitive play. You cannot claim that the developers don't want a competitive atmosphere: they want the game to go in whatever direction the community takes it.

Now, I believe you also said that you don't want people using advanced techniques in random online play, correct? Well, why would people go online to play against RANDOM people if not to compete? If you're going to focus on just having fun, there is absolutely no better way to have fun than to play with your friends. By going online, you agree to be subject to whatever your opponents throw at you, and you have no right to claim they can't do something, so long as it isn't a game-breaking glitch or other form of cheating. Glitches which help enhance the competitive atmosphere need to be encouraged, not suppressed.

I have more to say, but I think it best if I just stop for now. I'll continue in another post later.