Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

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  • XelNya
    [Kaho]
    FFR Simfile Author
    • Sep 2012
    • 3369

    #16
    Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements should be deleted

    Originally posted by Trumpet63
    There isn't really a deeper meaning... they're arbitrary points awarded for doing well on certain songs.
    So then instead of revamping the system, let's give it the final upgrade.

    Let's get rid of it for adding nothing of real value. There is zero things tier points do that isn't more useful than what we already have. I for years have never understood why this system has been kept, or implemented.
    Last edited by XelNya; 04-24-2016, 01:38 PM.

    Comment

    • RenegadeLucien
      FFR Veteran
      • Jan 2016
      • 283

      #17
      Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

      I thought people liked the TP system? There was at least enough interest in it to revamp it once a few years ago...maybe times have changed.

      But in any case...more time, more tools, new skill formula, draft 2! This time without huge holes...at least that I can find.

      AAAeq = DIFF * (a + (1 - a)/(1 + (NGC/c)^b)), where:

      a = -27861.2 + (0.0023176+27861.2)/(1 + (DIFF/977.0595)^5.396388)
      b = 0.0005334*DIFF^2 - 0.086575*DIFF + 4.228044
      c = 384644700 + (30.29862-384644700)/(1+(DIFF/213.2135)^16.80688)
      NGC = good count, and
      DIFF = song difficulty.

      New graphs:



      I feel a LOT better about this formula...the negative score issue is resolved, and it is much better with high-good scores than last time.
      Last edited by RenegadeLucien; 04-24-2016, 09:43 PM.


      Comment

      • igotrhythm
        Fractals!
        • Sep 2004
        • 6535

        #18
        Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

        Originally posted by RenegadeLucien
        Hmmm...really? I guess my own experiences are atypical, then. Personally, my high AAAs are 35, 34, and 32, and I only have one sub-5g score above a 40, so for me, at least, once you CAN get a low SDG, getting an AAA isn't that big a step up.

        In fact, I've always been of the opinion that if you're capable of a low SDG, you're capable of an AAA (barring mental blocks or some other limiting factor.)
        Once you get better, you'll start to see how wrong this statement is. My best AAAs are 69, 69 and 67, and I still can't do better than 3g on Purple, a 63. Mental blocks are HUGE when you're trying to get rid of those last few goods. But take heart: According to kjwkjw, each blackflag you get means you're closer to getting that eventual AAA.

        Keep up the good work, though!
        Originally posted by thesunfan
        I literally spent 10 minutes in the library looking for the TWG forum on Smogon and couldn't find it what the fuck is this witchcraft IGR

        Comment

        • Trumpet63
          Mostly Ignored
          • Mar 2011
          • 471

          #19
          Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

          Originally posted by RenegadeLucien
          AAAeq = DIFF * (a + (1 - a)/1 + (NGC/c)^b)
          Do you mean 1/(1-a) instead of (1-a)/1 ?
          2014 October 7th 1:03 AM

          Zageron: Trumpet
          Trumpet63: yes, im here
          Zageron: You have a problem.

          Comment

          • RenegadeLucien
            FFR Veteran
            • Jan 2016
            • 283

            #20
            Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

            Originally posted by Trumpet63
            Do you mean 1/(1-a) instead of (1-a)/1 ?
            Nah, I left out a parentheses. I meant DIFF * (a + (1 - a)/(1 + (NGC/c)^b))


            Comment

            • PrawnSkunk
              Administrator
              FFR Simfile Author
              FFR Administrator
              • Dec 2007
              • 3907

              #21
              Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

              Thank you RenegadeLucien for putting so much thought and effort into creating this proposal! I also really appreciate you justifying all of your suggested changes.

              I think it is important to discuss what tier points mean to the community, so we can decide what direction we want to evolve this metric.

              The curated list of songs and their requirements were hand-picked with love. Understanding this, would applying a generalized formula to all songs of a particular difficulty break the "spirit" of tier points? What about using a generalized formula for every song in-game to create an "improved" average rank? The tier points system is unique to any other ranking metric. If we want to improve the accuracy of tier points, where do we stop before it becomes a tooltip to the skill rating algorithm?

              Tier points were introduced as a "ranking system for the top active players" at a time when players were ranked by grandtotal. If tier points are an outdated skill ranking system, and skill rating exists, is there a reason to keep both metrics? I feel the suggestions made in this thread could be better directed to improve the skill rating algorithm itself.

              Comment

              • RenegadeLucien
                FFR Veteran
                • Jan 2016
                • 283

                #22
                Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

                First off, you're welcome, Prawn

                As XelNya stated, tier points might have become outdated as a ranking system when the skill rating algorithm was released. However, I don't think they've become completely obsolete, because they were indeed "hand-picked with love" as you stated. Since the intention of the tier point system was to have X tier points on a song be similar in difficulty on every song, and the skill rating algorithm in its current form does not reflect this, perhaps the tier points can be used as a kind of calibration tool for the skill rating algorithm, as I have attempted to do.

                That being said, my new formula is far from flawless. Calibrating by tier points has an inherent flaw--there is no hard calibration data below difficulty 50, and only superficial data above difficulty 90. Therefore, extensive extrapolation is required to make the formula reach all songs, which inevitably results in errors. My formula's accuracy starts to degrade below 45, and completely falls apart below 30, in the near-AAA scores. (For instance, a 10g on a 15 would be ranked under my formula as a 14.5, which is ridiculous.)

                I could try tinkering with the constants, but this clearly needs additional work before it can become a true upgrade to the formula.


                Comment

                • XelNya
                  [Kaho]
                  FFR Simfile Author
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 3369

                  #23
                  Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

                  Originally posted by RenegadeLucien
                  As XelNya stated, tier points might have become outdated as a ranking system when the skill rating algorithm was released. However, I don't think they've become completely obsolete, because they were indeed "hand-picked with love" as you stated.
                  Ignoring the somewhat inaccurate statements I wanna ask you something before you pour more effort into this.

                  "What does this system offer, that skill ranking, and access to in-depth level ranks / token ranks, neglect?"

                  My main point is if you asked me is from a design perspective, what kind of good does this leader board do us? I can't answer it with a better answer than "nothing."

                  Also I see you are not a vet, and I am unsure how new you actually are, so for reference when I say in-depth level ranks:



                  (Also I don't remember if this is a thing given to everyone, please ignore this if it is. It's been a while.)

                  If anything, tier points gave us one thing: A list of songs higher players placed weight on. Which is GREAT knowledge. It's great. Really. That can be used for the new skill rating metric. But beyond that, it's lost it's place. Especially when the skill rating system came in. (I am unsure if this thing references TPs. I think it does, which means it'd need a modification constantly which makes that equation kinda... Not as useful the longer we don't update it.)

                  Really though, I apologize if this seems like i'm digging at you. I can't stress hard enough that's not my intention. You honestly have a hell of a knack for stuff like this if you asked me.

                  Also should note, I could be wrong on something, or entirely. It's just what I think.
                  Last edited by XelNya; 04-25-2016, 02:41 AM.

                  Comment

                  • MinaciousGrace
                    FFR Player
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 4278

                    #24
                    Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

                    Originally posted by RenegadeLucien
                    Therefore, extensive extrapolation is required to make the formula reach all songs, which inevitably results in errors.
                    getting warmer

                    Comment

                    • RenegadeLucien
                      FFR Veteran
                      • Jan 2016
                      • 283

                      #25
                      Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

                      Haha, no you're not digging at me. And you're right to a certain degree. I've, for the most part, transitioned from using the skill rating formula to update TPs to using the TP requirements as benchmarks to create a more accurate skill rating formula.

                      (And yes, the "detailed" level ranks are available to all members. At least, I have the levelranks that you display in that screenshot.)

                      That being said, I might...have tinkered with the constants a little :P (or actually I just got rid of the extrapolated data from 92-96 and re-calculated)

                      AAAeq formula itself remains the same
                      a = -0.085482 + (-0.002106+0.085482)/(1 + (DIFF/81.72714)^10.97649)
                      b = 0.0005004*DIFF^2 - 0.08213*DIFF + 4.082412
                      c = 139273100 + (13.58178-139273100)/(1+(DIFF/452.0376)^8.394673)



                      I really don't think I'm going to mess with this any more...unless another hole shows up that I think I can fix...this is probably as accurate as I can get considering the limitations of the data.
                      Last edited by RenegadeLucien; 04-26-2016, 09:03 PM.


                      Comment

                      • RenegadeLucien
                        FFR Veteran
                        • Jan 2016
                        • 283

                        #26
                        Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

                        I had a spare hour and a half, so...Program that will take your levelrank and rate all your songs with this formula, plus give you an overall skill rating

                        The program (JAR)

                        How to run:
                        paste your levelranks into a text file (only the songs/scores/PGAMB/etc themselves, not the other stuff on the page), and call the file "levelrank.txt"
                        put the text file and the JAR in the same directory
                        run the JAR, you will get your results in a file called "results.txt"


                        Skill Rating: 36.51790797128988
                        (Worth noting that it smacked my skill rating down by 8 points, and it would probably do the same to most if not all.)

                        Vanishing Gungaroon 43.02846554141545
                        Metropolis Zone 36.56766647215424
                        Move It Groove It [Standard] 35.0
                        Heel and Toe 34.84560510368832
                        Start Something 34.70178909199834
                        Exodus (On vocal ver.) 34.0
                        Road To You 32.09892998805905
                        {Paranorma} 32.0
                        Sifon 31.608282068166922
                        Fire 30.974894054676486
                        Vijore 30.811022697328347
                        Lift Up 30.441587641012468
                        Time (Soular Order Remix) 29.86480896402929
                        AM-3P (House Party Dub) 29.595061189210313
                        Starlight [Macgravel] 29.53929287553183
                        Tsugaru 180 New Version 29.46646982806246
                        Gameboy Rave! 29.353774491632223
                        Kaleidoscope 29.01808940439002
                        Wish (Kyrn Remix) 29.0
                        Heavy Danger 28.88593708584809
                        Lady's Cake 28.776587862655774
                        Euphoria [Smiley] 28.592129274349723
                        Inspector Gadget 28.576124397188536
                        Dying Flame 28.0
                        Far Away From Home 27.978320756761075
                        False Strawberry 27.868116985685873
                        iPatch's OP 27.62209304223155
                        Hadazamui Rittou 27.572251446193214
                        Two Sisters [Heavy] 27.572251446193214
                        Crazy Hair Day 27.569393005235085
                        ice valley "beyond the searoad" 27.313417190798347
                        Horizon II (Seven's Dawn) 26.988583526970654
                        Psychosis 26.98229000263161
                        Speed Limit 38 26.98229000263161
                        DKC2 Symphonic Rock Remix 26.541148790906128
                        Firebird 26.541148790906128
                        Destiny 26.496059562567265
                        Grandolin 26.448405870536853
                        Crystalis - House Leaves (Long) 26.399184763946845
                        Palindrome 26.38564780607802
                        Pimp Slap 26.367724245866068
                        Mario Eurobeat 26.223777209607036
                        That is Fair 26.17176522298196
                        Pavlov's Dog 26.166512410921328
                        Hiszekeny 26.166512410921328
                        Syndrome Craze 26.0
                        Midnight of the North 26.0
                        Samurai Road 25.984660970555215
                        Battle Squadron Menu (Juno Reaktor Mix) 25.96487906622173
                        Outside the Skies 25.898701059333693
                        beyond the summer sky ~Maid To Order~ 25.891371413243633
                        Never Look Back 25.6772437152597
                        Reluctantly Accepting Temporary Overexhaustion 25.39413904790565
                        Dr. Mario Pt. 1 25.338541496687778
                        Driveway [Heavy] 25.127780034940493
                        KISS CANDY FLAVOR [Standard] 25.0
                        Felys (Elegiac Mix) 24.809898080961997
                        Jumper 24.643401695296244
                        Flutter 24.643401695296244
                        Underground 24.371497864589344
                        MASCARADA 24.12951991484419
                        Atop The World 24.0
                        bossa nova of december 23.8089868167157
                        Let Mom Sleep 23.759934550784692
                        Your Grace [Heavy] 23.64747231648627
                        Kire Kire Mayoi 23.622152157712012
                        Okusenman! -Hardcore Mix- 23.520814625537852
                        For Your Love 23.428008886919915
                        Rill Rill (Dr. Ozi Remix) 23.375131572830902
                        Less Talk More Rokk (Mark Saunders Remix) 23.369430327410218
                        H.T.I.J. 23.289272863671158
                        esc (super version) 22.98310513678636
                        January's Song 22.96225850404872
                        Hey, Ladies 22.96225850404872
                        ABCDEath 22.601015895632617
                        Secrets and Lies 22.557833819731655
                        W 22.358785223224338
                        Drum Song 22.358785223224338
                        Wow, I Can Get Sexual Too 22.299286127627138
                        do i smile? 22.16717257735906
                        Electric Obsession 22.0
                        Horizon 22.0
                        Blank Knowing 22.0
                        Strawberry Music 21.984728141167952
                        American in Amsterdam [Heavy] 21.824138277706496
                        Back in the Day 21.71520386366047
                        Electro Rush x8 21.690696405832124
                        Song For All Time 21.60458193985272
                        Norgers 21.307464235113443
                        Hatten Carnival! 21.19994866058075
                        Evil Approaches 21.059124250277243
                        Seagull 20.97480176899793
                        Indigo 20.864013670411
                        {Big Boss} 20.65171991368
                        Hardkore Atomic 20.621373791520796
                        Lover Reef 20.596404420747415
                        Funktacular 20.57992853790534
                        Eclipse (Solar) 20.528815357415883
                        Molto Vivace 20.492384664370356
                        Tell Me A Story (Compendium Mix) 20.460883453937104
                        Hyoukai 20.334663907680447

                        etc. etc. etc.

                        Last edited by RenegadeLucien; 04-26-2016, 09:35 PM.


                        Comment

                        • rushyrulz
                          Digital Dancing!
                          FFR Simfile Author
                          FFR Music Producer
                          • Feb 2006
                          • 12985

                          #27
                          Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

                          A few points that I'll respond to:
                          1) Tier points are unnecessary
                          I pretty much agree with this. I believe TPs have served their purpose and have no real meaning anymore. I think that tiers should be replaced by Divisions which are extrapolated from the Skill Rating algorithm. That being said, I think we can still use them to sharpen the algorithm, like Renegade is attempting to do.

                          2) The current skill rating algorithm is inaccurate
                          I think it does well in the lower and mid spectrum of songs, but on the high-end, it gets a little hairy. This is most likely a product of the skill ramp taking a hike at that level and the algorithm isn't able to capture exactly what the hell is going on up there. (This is anything 85+).

                          3) Who tf even is this guy he's a total noob and he's walkin around like he owns the place (paraphrase)
                          Definitely not his first account. Out of respect of privacy, I won't spill the beans.
                          Last edited by rushyrulz; 04-27-2016, 08:07 AM.


                          Comment

                          • SKG_Scintill
                            Spun a twirly fruitcake,
                            FFR Simfile Author
                            • Feb 2009
                            • 3876

                            #28
                            Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

                            1000 goods on a dif 90 is the same as AAAing a dif 18
                            ok then





                            Originally posted by bluguerilla
                            So Sexy Robotnik (SKG_Scintill) {.0001/10} [--]
                            ___
                            . RHYTHMS PR LAYERING
                            . ZOMG I HAD TO QUIT OUT TERRIBLE
                            .

                            Comment

                            • RenegadeLucien
                              FFR Veteran
                              • Jan 2016
                              • 283

                              #29
                              Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

                              Originally posted by rushyrulz
                              3) Who tf even is this guy he's a total noob and he's walkin around like he owns the place (paraphrase)
                              Um...if I've been giving off that impression, then I'm sorry.

                              [Though Rushy is right about the not first account thing.]

                              Originally posted by SKG_Scintill
                              1000 goods on a dif 90 is the same as AAAing a dif 18
                              ok then
                              Well 1K goods on a 99 is the same as SDGing a 50 according to the tier point list so I don't see it that far out of line.


                              Comment

                              • rushyrulz
                                Digital Dancing!
                                FFR Simfile Author
                                FFR Music Producer
                                • Feb 2006
                                • 12985

                                #30
                                Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

                                It was a pretty satirical paraphrase, nobody thinks you're a noob walking around like you own the place.
                                Last edited by rushyrulz; 04-27-2016, 12:38 PM.


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