Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

**XelNya** · 04-24-2016, 01:38 PM

Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements should be deleted

Originally posted by Trumpet63

There isn't really a deeper meaning... they're arbitrary points awarded for doing well on certain songs.

So then instead of revamping the system, let's give it the final upgrade.

Let's get rid of it for adding nothing of real value. There is zero things tier points do that isn't more useful than what we already have. I for years have never understood why this system has been kept, or implemented.

**RenegadeLucien** · 04-24-2016, 08:30 PM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

I thought people liked the TP system? There was at least enough interest in it to revamp it once a few years ago...maybe times have changed.

But in any case...more time, more tools, new skill formula, draft 2! This time without huge holes...at least that I can find.

AAAeq = DIFF * (a + (1 - a)/(1 + (NGC/c)^b)), where:

a = -27861.2 + (0.0023176+27861.2)/(1 + (DIFF/977.0595)^5.396388)
b = 0.0005334*DIFF^2 - 0.086575*DIFF + 4.228044
c = 384644700 + (30.29862-384644700)/(1+(DIFF/213.2135)^16.80688)
NGC = good count, and
DIFF = song difficulty.

New graphs:

I feel a LOT better about this formula...the negative score issue is resolved, and it is much better with high-good scores than last time.

**igotrhythm** · 04-24-2016, 09:20 PM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

Originally posted by RenegadeLucien

Hmmm...really? I guess my own experiences are atypical, then. Personally, my high AAAs are 35, 34, and 32, and I only have one sub-5g score above a 40, so for me, at least, once you CAN get a low SDG, getting an AAA isn't that big a step up.

In fact, I've always been of the opinion that if you're capable of a low SDG, you're capable of an AAA (barring mental blocks or some other limiting factor.)

Once you get better, you'll start to see how wrong this statement is. My best AAAs are 69, 69 and 67, and I still can't do better than 3g on Purple, a 63. Mental blocks are HUGE when you're trying to get rid of those last few goods. But take heart: According to kjwkjw, each blackflag you get means you're closer to getting that eventual AAA.

Keep up the good work, though!

**Trumpet63** · 04-24-2016, 09:30 PM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

Originally posted by RenegadeLucien

AAAeq = DIFF * (a + (1 - a)/1 + (NGC/c)^b)

Do you mean 1/(1-a) instead of (1-a)/1 ?

**RenegadeLucien** · 04-24-2016, 09:42 PM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

Originally posted by Trumpet63

Do you mean 1/(1-a) instead of (1-a)/1 ?

Nah, I left out a parentheses. I meant DIFF * (a + (1 - a)/(1 + (NGC/c)^b))

**PrawnSkunk** · 04-25-2016, 01:16 AM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

Thank you RenegadeLucien for putting so much thought and effort into creating this proposal! I also really appreciate you justifying all of your suggested changes.

I think it is important to discuss what tier points mean to the community, so we can decide what direction we want to evolve this metric.

The curated list of songs and their requirements were hand-picked with love. Understanding this, would applying a generalized formula to all songs of a particular difficulty break the "spirit" of tier points? What about using a generalized formula for every song in-game to create an "improved" average rank? The tier points system is unique to any other ranking metric. If we want to improve the accuracy of tier points, where do we stop before it becomes a tooltip to the skill rating algorithm?

Tier points were introduced as a "ranking system for the top active players" at a time when players were ranked by grandtotal. If tier points are an outdated skill ranking system, and skill rating exists, is there a reason to keep both metrics? I feel the suggestions made in this thread could be better directed to improve the skill rating algorithm itself.

**RenegadeLucien** · 04-25-2016, 01:31 AM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

First off, you're welcome, Prawn

As XelNya stated, tier points might have become outdated as a ranking system when the skill rating algorithm was released. However, I don't think they've become completely obsolete, because they were indeed "hand-picked with love" as you stated. Since the intention of the tier point system was to have X tier points on a song be similar in difficulty on every song, and the skill rating algorithm in its current form does not reflect this, perhaps the tier points can be used as a kind of calibration tool for the skill rating algorithm, as I have attempted to do.

That being said, my new formula is far from flawless. Calibrating by tier points has an inherent flaw--there is no hard calibration data below difficulty 50, and only superficial data above difficulty 90. Therefore, extensive extrapolation is required to make the formula reach all songs, which inevitably results in errors. My formula's accuracy starts to degrade below 45, and completely falls apart below 30, in the near-AAA scores. (For instance, a 10g on a 15 would be ranked under my formula as a 14.5, which is ridiculous.)

I could try tinkering with the constants, but this clearly needs additional work before it can become a true upgrade to the formula.

**XelNya** · 04-25-2016, 02:40 AM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

Originally posted by RenegadeLucien

As XelNya stated, tier points might have become outdated as a ranking system when the skill rating algorithm was released. However, I don't think they've become completely obsolete, because they were indeed "hand-picked with love" as you stated.

Ignoring the somewhat inaccurate statements I wanna ask you something before you pour more effort into this.

"What does this system offer, that skill ranking, and access to in-depth level ranks / token ranks, neglect?"

My main point is if you asked me is from a design perspective, what kind of good does this leader board do us? I can't answer it with a better answer than "nothing."

Also I see you are not a vet, and I am unsure how new you actually are, so for reference when I say in-depth level ranks:

(Also I don't remember if this is a thing given to everyone, please ignore this if it is. It's been a while.)

If anything, tier points gave us one thing: A list of songs higher players placed weight on. Which is GREAT knowledge. It's great. Really. That can be used for the new skill rating metric. But beyond that, it's lost it's place. Especially when the skill rating system came in. (I am unsure if this thing references TPs. I think it does, which means it'd need a modification constantly which makes that equation kinda... Not as useful the longer we don't update it.)

Really though, I apologize if this seems like i'm digging at you. I can't stress hard enough that's not my intention. You honestly have a hell of a knack for stuff like this if you asked me.

Also should note, I could be wrong on something, or entirely. It's just what I think.

**MinaciousGrace** · 04-25-2016, 02:43 AM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

Originally posted by RenegadeLucien

Therefore, extensive extrapolation is required to make the formula reach all songs, which inevitably results in errors.

getting warmer

**RenegadeLucien** · 04-25-2016, 02:52 AM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

Haha, no you're not digging at me. And you're right to a certain degree. I've, for the most part, transitioned from using the skill rating formula to update TPs to using the TP requirements as benchmarks to create a more accurate skill rating formula.

(And yes, the "detailed" level ranks are available to all members. At least, I have the levelranks that you display in that screenshot.)

That being said, I might...have tinkered with the constants a little :P (or actually I just got rid of the extrapolated data from 92-96 and re-calculated)

AAAeq formula itself remains the same
a = -0.085482 + (-0.002106+0.085482)/(1 + (DIFF/81.72714)^10.97649)
b = 0.0005004*DIFF^2 - 0.08213*DIFF + 4.082412
c = 139273100 + (13.58178-139273100)/(1+(DIFF/452.0376)^8.394673)

I really don't think I'm going to mess with this any more...unless another hole shows up that I think I can fix...this is probably as accurate as I can get considering the limitations of the data.

**RenegadeLucien** · 04-26-2016, 09:34 PM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

I had a spare hour and a half, so...Program that will take your levelrank and rate all your songs with this formula, plus give you an overall skill rating

The program (JAR)

How to run:
paste your levelranks into a text file (only the songs/scores/PGAMB/etc themselves, not the other stuff on the page), and call the file "levelrank.txt"
put the text file and the JAR in the same directory
run the JAR, you will get your results in a file called "results.txt"

**rushyrulz** · 04-27-2016, 08:07 AM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

A few points that I'll respond to:
1) Tier points are unnecessary
I pretty much agree with this. I believe TPs have served their purpose and have no real meaning anymore. I think that tiers should be replaced by Divisions which are extrapolated from the Skill Rating algorithm. That being said, I think we can still use them to sharpen the algorithm, like Renegade is attempting to do.

2) The current skill rating algorithm is inaccurate
I think it does well in the lower and mid spectrum of songs, but on the high-end, it gets a little hairy. This is most likely a product of the skill ramp taking a hike at that level and the algorithm isn't able to capture exactly what the hell is going on up there. (This is anything 85+).

3) Who tf even is this guy he's a total noob and he's walkin around like he owns the place (paraphrase)
Definitely not his first account. Out of respect of privacy, I won't spill the beans.

**SKG_Scintill** · 04-27-2016, 09:18 AM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

1000 goods on a dif 90 is the same as AAAing a dif 18
ok then

**RenegadeLucien** · 04-27-2016, 12:03 PM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

Originally posted by rushyrulz

3) Who tf even is this guy he's a total noob and he's walkin around like he owns the place (paraphrase)

Um...if I've been giving off that impression, then I'm sorry.

[Though Rushy is right about the not first account thing.]

Originally posted by SKG_Scintill

1000 goods on a dif 90 is the same as AAAing a dif 18
ok then

Well 1K goods on a 99 is the same as SDGing a 50 according to the tier point list so I don't see it that far out of line.

**rushyrulz** · 04-27-2016, 12:38 PM

Re: Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

It was a pretty satirical paraphrase, nobody thinks you're a noob walking around like you own the place.

Suggestion/Proposal: Tier Point Requirements Revamp

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment