On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

Take a look at your "the sky is the limit" argument this way:

You are shown two cards: a king and an ace. Remembering the position of those two cards is easy (this is like the excite bike example you're giving: the file is easy, an AAA takes basically no effort).

Now double that number. Four different cards this time. You need to remember which cards are where. The difficulty increases.

Double it again. Eight cards. Keep doubling the number. The difficulty of remembering increases exponentially very quickly. You could very well have remembered all eight, but there may be inconsistency at this point (remembering 7 out of 8, etc.)

Now apply the "four (2^2) was top tier a year ago" kind of logic and keep repeating it, incrementing the number each time. That's basically vibrating from a different standpoint. Reaching 180 BPM 16ths is pretty hard, reaching 190 is also hard, getting to 200 is very hard, and after that it basically becomes a crapshoot when trying to improve.

Still not invalidating my point. It Does get harder to improve the harder things get, but unless it's proven that there's any objective limit to the maximum difficulty that can be achieved, you can't just say "oh but we, the fastest dudes, can't do it, so it's not possible".

Lots of people over-complicating this for no reason whatsoever..

The vibrating control isn't the issue, it's the maxspeed in order to execute CP's trill. Vibrating control is 100% achievable with practice and even without control, if you have the speed to do the trill all you need is a lucky run; however the raw speed needed to keep up with the CP trill is out of everyone's physical range save for maybe 1 or 2 people. It's this reason which justifies having it as a token file imo. "Sky's the limit" can apply to controlling vibration, but attaining over 220bpm vibration on each hand takes hundreds of hours of work or a natural talent. It's a marginal skill that a lot of people discount as valuable or applicable to rhythm gaming so it should be treated as such by having Crowdpleaser in token ranks.

""Sky's the limit" can apply to controlling vibration, but attaining over 220bpm vibration on each hand takes hundreds of hours of work or a natural talent." I agree, though it's not Impossible. Reaching 500 BPM short streams takes hundreds of hours too.

"It's a marginal skill that a lot of people discount as valuable or applicable to rhythm gaming so it should be treated as such by having Crowdpleaser in token ranks." this argument makes sense.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

So the inconsistency is brought about by the raw speed of the trill??

Yes, if you give something outside of a person's comfort zone, the difficulty increase becomes exponential.

If you can't do a faster speed you will be much more inconsistent than a slower speed that is longer.

Still not invalidating my point. It Does get harder to improve the harder things get, but unless it's proven that there's any objective limit to the maximum difficulty that can be achieved, you can't just say "oh but we, the fastest dudes, can't do it, so it's not possible".

Statistics gives you a lot of information on what is currently possible. Like I mentioned, the highest recorded vibrating speed in 10 seconds is 160 taps by Takahashi Meijin. That's saying that after 240 BPM 16ths the increase becomes so marginally small that it isn't really possible to go above that speed.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

Statistics gives you a lot of information on what is currently possible. Like I mentioned, the highest recorded vibrating speed in 10 seconds is 160 taps by Takahashi Meijin. That's saying that after 240 BPM 16ths the increase becomes so marginally small that it isn't really possible to go above that speed.

Now that is more objective. Now I can agree with you that that speed can be a potential limit in terms of raw speed.

[ssbmchamp]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

I honestly want to see Crowdpleaser removed from the game along with a couple of other files (p4u v1, vROFL) for being near (or flat out) impossible to do physically (on a normal setup) rather than just putting them into token levelranks.

If crowdpleaser is going so should this. At least crowdpleaser you can see the notes so for me p4u is 100% physically impossible where as crowdpleaser would actually be possible since I can see the notes. With that said I think the skill token to get the other version of p4u is bullshit because i can't see the notes in the first place to even have a chance to unlock it.

side note: as far as i'm concerned the DP trill is "vibrating" since vibrating has no exact qualifications in terms of BPM. CP might be faster and harder but both you have to hit really fucking fast in a "vibrating" motion.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

Now that is more objective. Now I can agree with you that that speed can be a potential limit in terms of raw speed.

Really though the point here is vibrating is a universally recognized difficulty that is very hard to improve, and when thinking about difficulty we are concerned with what is measurable and possible factors as to how those measurable quantities could be improved.

Considering that most of the FCs on Crowdpleaser were obtained with overlay setup or double setup and that you can even look statistically at how many players have passed hard vibrating files (for instance, how many players have passed Reincarnation challenge? Only a handful), there is definitely merit to considering what is a reasonable limit for vibrating here. Remember we are concerned with data that can be measured, not just saying "The sky is the limit" all the time.

[___________]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

The question is why the historic value of these files is higher than the judging value from getting them in-game. It's creating unnecessary ambiguity and goes against the idea of getting quality files in-game. It's just a huge slap in the simfiles judge team. It's not only CP but also Revo, RATO, For FFR, SoSSG etc. etc. There's a reason why they don't accept 500 bpm 16th jacks or 800 bpm 16th one hand trills or completely off-sync songs. There's conditions that need to be met and these files are clearly not meeting them.

This, I dislike the inconsistencies of this game as a whole. One minute we're trying to attract new players, and then the next we want to preserve the ~history~ of FFR by keeping these shitty files in. No one wants to play these legacy files, no one wants these files rotting in their levelranks. Just put CP and the rest of the offsync Synthlight files in an alternate engine and remove them from FFR.

[One Winged Angel]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

was immediately reminded of this after skimming thread

Opkiller is O'Leary :revealed:
babe ily bro

For the record, swapping v1 in public ranks with the v2 in tokens is something I've advocated for quite a while, as well as v1 and v2 of Revo.

[noname219]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

O'Leary was born in Quebec btw. :O

[I like it]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

no keep it public

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

But Rob I'm not part of the wealthy 1% I can't vibrate for shit :3

@Doss, yeah I tend to argue on stuff that doesnt seem well thought, and often get out of the original topic. Notice I was against keeping CP in lvlranks but it changed to "is vibrating a developable skill" lol.

[kmay]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

Dude your logic makes 0 sense: "Problem: file makes no sense. Solution: Learn to play nonsense stuff." I bet you'd say Whimper Wall was a nice/fun file to combo on lmao.

PS: go step a legit vibrating file and Then use all the pro-CP arguments, that might work. But don't simply defend a dumb file like CP thx

argument is valid. look at the level ranks for it. almost 300 FC's. the top 100 have some pretty good scores on it. seems like you guys on here just like complaining. i can't jack to save my life but i'm not here trying to get Club out of the ranks. i just need to practice more. I can assure you everyone in here posting can get a SDG non-FC on this file. its very easy. there just happens to be a few tough sections.

just overlay and you will get a nice looking score. suck it up. it wont take long. i mean i'm all for moving it. like i said it will probably drop me down a division in tournaments when i do play, but don't act like the file is really the end of the world.


and my argument doesn't work for vROFL because the entire file is like that. only what, like 2 seconds, of CP is vibrating. or two hand trilling. you will be fine.

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

argument is valid. look at the level ranks for it. almost 300 FC's. the top 100 have some pretty good scores on it. seems like you guys on here just like complaining. i can't jack to save my life but i'm not here trying to get Club out of the ranks. i just need to practice more. I can assure you everyone in here posting can get a SDG non-FC on this file. its very easy. there just happens to be a few tough sections.

just overlay and you will get a nice looking score. suck it up. it wont take long. i mean i'm all for moving it. like i said it will probably drop me down a division in tournaments when i do play, but don't act like the file is really the end of the world.


and my argument doesn't work for vROFL because the entire file is like that. only what, like 2 seconds, of CP is vibrating. or two hand trilling. you will be fine.

Club is a legit good file, no matter how good/bad you are at it. CP notes make no sense.

You're saying files that would Require double setup are acceptable files in this game. That's your opinion, can't deny it, but I'm personally against that.

Acting like it's the end of the world... Srsly man ? We're trying to improve this game come on.

Your point looks like this: "I'm for removing CP from lvlranks (PS: ppl want it removed cuz it's a bad file and not reprensentative), but don't complain about how bad the file is."

[omega_grunt666]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

argument is valid. look at the level ranks for it. almost 300 FC's. the top 100 have some pretty good scores on it. seems like you guys on here just like complaining. i can't jack to save my life but i'm not here trying to get Club out of the ranks. i just need to practice more. I can assure you everyone in here posting can get a SDG non-FC on this file. its very easy. there just happens to be a few tough sections.

just overlay and you will get a nice looking score. suck it up. it wont take long. i mean i'm all for moving it. like i said it will probably drop me down a division in tournaments when i do play, but don't act like the file is really the end of the world.


and my argument doesn't work for vROFL because the entire file is like that. only what, like 2 seconds, of CP is vibrating. or two hand trilling. you will be fine.

99% of which are double/overlay setups which is basically cheating. And I wouldn't call a 94 pattern in a 69 or less file a "tough section", its just bad and gimmicky. The leader board isn't about skill at that point ,its who has two keyboards or some macro keys/anti-ghosting and a little patience. By your logic P4U should also be public ranks because you could memorize the zero framers, might as well throw in token whore and wises were wrong too.

The precedent has been set that we don't leave/add these kind of files to the public ranks. Its not unreasonable to want to leave it in the game because of its history, but what would be wrong with making a v2 and moving this to a token?

[emulord]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

People are saying "What about consistency?"
I think that crowdpleaser should remain BECAUSE consistency = sameness = boring files.

Seriously, we should have more index / one handed aimed charts and gimmicky things. I agree that background videos should be tokens because they can cause lag for some players which is a unfair difference.

Isnt Nova Pulser gimmicky with those minijacks? Isnt pants gimmicky in a way with miles of jumpstream? What about color gimmicks like Counting Snow? We should celebrate diversity and a barely-possible trill in a otherwise Challenging/VC file is fun.

Btw, I tried doing a double setup/overlay, but I ended up just doing the trill for real after mashing every other song in the game. I hit VERY early for averages and got late goods on the last arrow. AAAing is out of the question for me, but I could probably get a 15-25 good FC on the file if I tried many many times.

[omega_grunt666]

Re: On the Removal of Crowdpleaser from Level Ranks

Consistency doesn't mean boring files, there are tons of challenging (for non-standard reasons) files in the game, is Club boring? Turbo? M.A.M.A? crowdpleaser isn't special except for the fact it contains a pattern that is easily cheated and un-proportionately hard to do compared to the rest of the song.

We're talking about a pattern that keeps this file's AAA's in a similar number to Heterochromia Iridis, Husigi Usagi Milk Tei, and Winter Wind Etude. ENTIRE SONGS that are similar difficulty to TWO SECONDS of this file. Single/short patterns are generally easier to learn and overcome, thats why you have songs line Lolo and grind2 labelled at a lower difficulty even though their average speeds/patterns are faster then similarly rated songs. But the nature of this pattern makes it very hard if not impossible just about everyone to learn, but at the same time is incredibly easy to cheat by using a non-standard layout.

Nova pulser, pants, and counting snow don't require a special setup, it isn't a gimmick in a bad sense like CP. You can't easily cheat those files in a way that devalues the difficulty of learning them properly.

*edit*

@kmay, and I consider the people who use two feet standing on the corners of the pads and vibrating cheating, but its still within the rules of the game. BUT:

Read the rules!

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/announcement.php?f=14&a=52

FFR The Game Rules:
Play FFR any way you'd like, but make sure that you don't cheat. Cheating isn't the kind of thing that just accidentally happens. Cheating also isn't tolerated. If you are caught trying to cheat in any way, you may be permanently banned from the site. Additionally, all of your scores may be removed.

Examples of cheating include but are not limited to:
- Using a bot;
- Exploiting glitches;
- Having someone else play for you on your account;
- Using a double setup. (Using more than one key input at once per arrow.)

The file promotes a style of play that is cheating within the rules of the game, the effort involved in legitimately completing the pattern in an accurate manner is simply not worth it for the quality of the file. Its bad stepping plain and simple, not simply a file that is "too hard".

That being said, it has a place in FFR history and would make a fine token.