FFR Skill Rank System

**TheSaxRunner05** · 07-19-2013, 02:14 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

What might be a more prudent discussion is what should define each division cut off. We could make equations but the lines between divisions are really the sticking point here. What AAA/SDG/sub 20/sub 30 ect cutoffs define each division?

That's a tough question. Everyone has different skillsets. Just as a rough example, an index player could AAA or SDG VB but still be D2 level overall. No matter how you set guidelines, those guidelines will be advantageous to some players and not so for others.

I think an equation might make a good guideline, but not as a hard and fast rule.

**21992** · 07-19-2013, 02:30 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

Originally posted by TheSaxRunner05

What might be a more prudent discussion is what should define each division cut off. We could make equations but the lines between divisions are really the sticking point here. What AAA/SDG/sub 20/sub 30 ect cutoffs define each division?

That's a tough question. Everyone has different skillsets. Just as a rough example, an index player could AAA or SDG VB but still be D2 level overall. No matter how you set guidelines, those guidelines will be advantageous to some players and not so for others.

I think an equation might make a good guideline, but not as a hard and fast rule.

I see what you're saying but that will only solve one problem of placing people in a division. I think it would be much cooler if you can see where you rank between people. Especially if you can see who is just ahead of you etc. Multiplayer matches could be mitigated by this too! I made this thread because I'm tired of being judged D5 because I have oni. imo I have no place in D5 more of a higher end D4 player. I practically retired from FFR when my keyboard broke.

**Gradiant** · 07-19-2013, 02:35 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

Pretty sure your Oni get, Rottel booflag, multiple FMO SDGs, and 2 clean on Frictional Nevada (wtf) make you D5

EDIT: For the majority of players, it's pretty obvious what division they are in...but it's the players between divisions that's weird. It's good for tournaments though, since they're easily moved around when needed if there's not enough/too many in a certain division.

**TheSaxRunner05** · 07-19-2013, 02:45 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

It would be impossible to see who is just ahead of you because how objective song difficulties are. The closer two players are in skill, the more subjective the differentiation in skill.

**~Zeta~** · 07-19-2013, 03:35 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

I sense spreadsheets in my future (hi kjw) aklsdfjas;lkfdj

It's not impossible to assess skill; you just have to finagle all the variables to fit a general census. Are those values still arbitrary? Yes. You can break it down by a accumulation of skill sets set to songs (and where songs have multiple elements, break those down even further) to be based on raw scoring and then have a general layout of skill based on what they have played. That means, it can be based on what they have played so far and becoming even more unique or accurate with more played songs (perhaps a deviation or correlation measure based on song total).

The idea is interesting to me to try and find a basis or gist of a equation or rule set.

EDIT:

Just a quick list of element breakdowns:
1. bpm
2. skills required (if it has like 2 bursts, it isn't a bursty song; if it has 16 measures or something of jumpstream, that's "strong" enough to be a skillset of that song;if it has 16 measures of jumpstream and 2 measures of jumpjacks, it's considered both)

problem with multiple elements to the song is we can't tell which skill they're better at but just finding the average can help variance/skillset.

3. score (extremely biased and arbitrary but can be related to rank/scores of others or something)
4. length (really not necessary but things like RWOB a;lksfdja;lkfjawdf)

**EzExZeRo7497** · 07-19-2013, 07:13 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

The system for performance points in Osu is extremely flawed, but the idea is there yeah. It's possible to assess skill, but only vaguely. Main issue would be how everyone has different skillsets and such and that some people will find a file with a higher difficulty much easier than the lower ones. For example, a player would find files like AIM Anthem (71) and Club (70) much easier than something say like For FFR (67?) or Rottel-Da-Station (66) because of the skillset. Of course, that's only if you use difficulties as a factor to indicate skill, which I really don't recommend to begin with.

Unless you have some factors which would get rid of subjectivity (look at Zeta's element breakdown for example), it would get rid of the bias issue and would be more accurate. But the only issue is that judging how large of the factor is also subjective to begin with. Someone can find EHHS easier than Makiba, but most people find EHHS harder for example.

It's not really possible to make a completely "objective" skill indicator, but you can make it that's close to being objective I guess.

**noname219** · 07-19-2013, 08:57 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

I did some calculations during the 8th Official Tournament with levelranks and it turned quite good honestly. I had some of my predictions in the finals (PaperclipGames, Fluffy) and three winners (beary, SallowKnight, samurai).

Something like this could work well :

By using the current song difficulties (1 to 99), separate them by sections (which would represent different skill levels) :
1 to 4................x1
5 to 9................x2
10 to 14.............x3
etc.
90 to 94.............x19
95 to 99.............x20

From each section, find the 5 best PA by using this formula : Perfect / (Good + Average + Miss + Boo) = song total.
* If AAA, notecount x 2
* Song must be passed to count
* If there's less than 5 songs passed, that's not important, the total will be smaller

Sum those 5 songs = section total
Use the multiplayer, and sum all section total = Skill grandtotal.

**~Zeta~** · 07-19-2013, 09:15 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

That's a start but if someone's good a jacks but nothing else, that certainly wouldn't rank accurately compared to another good at jumpstream and bursts lets say. If the 5 best are the same (all theory, of course) then they would have equal ranks but of entirely different skillsets.

What I was considering was completely breaking down song data and applying attributes to files which would then define a players skillset based on their scores. That is applying all songs in the game. The less songs completed/scored on will result in inaccuracies which would inflate/deflate their actual ranking.

The toughest and most subjective part is patterns. You really can't measure patterns in ranks which is really putting a hole in this idea but I haven't started messing around with it yet.

I guess it's an all-encompassing tier point list with total "points" (temp label) ranked from highest to lowest.

**noname219** · 07-19-2013, 09:33 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

Originally posted by ~Zeta~

What I was considering was completely breaking down song data and applying attributes to files which would then define a players skillset based on their scores.

Sounds really like a good plan to me. I don't know exactly how it would turn out in practice. Most, if not all of the files have a ton of different patterns and because of how the scores are recorded, we can't know where a player missed something (or what pattern is he good).

That's a start but if someone's good a jacks but nothing else, that certainly wouldn't rank accurately compared to another good at jumpstream and bursts lets say. If the 5 best are the same (all theory, of course) then they would have equal ranks but of entirely different skillsets.

I was seeing a trend when I was doing some calculations with my method. Compare to other songs in the same difficulty, long songs had better PA. Also, jumpstream-songs.
If there was a way to encompass this in my equation, I dunno.

**~Zeta~** · 07-19-2013, 09:49 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

I'll see what I can do in the morning. Too tired from all this heat (omg) to think right.

**noname219** · 07-19-2013, 09:50 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

Originally posted by ~Zeta~

Too tired from all this heat (omg) to think right.

Location: South Pole

^^

**EzExZeRo7497** · 07-19-2013, 10:25 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

Originally posted by noname219

I was seeing a trend when I was doing some calculations with my method. Compare to other songs in the same difficulty, long songs had better PA. Also, jumpstream-songs.
If there was a way to encompass this in my equation, I dunno.

People have better PA on longer songs compared to files in the same difficulty with shorter length because length is also a factor in difficulty. Most files that are very long have either one or two very hard sections (Red Wings Over Baron, White Walls Part 2) or just very easy throughout for its difficulty, but it's constantly at that difficulty (Megaman Rock Medley).

You can reduce the weightage of those long (>4:00) songs by an arbitrary percentage I guess. Not sure about jumpstream though, it's certainly easier to do compared to bursts (at least for most people) but I don't think you should reduce the weightage of it in the equation.

**HalfStep** · 07-19-2013, 10:39 PM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

Originally posted by EzExZeRo7497

Not sure about jumpstream though, it's certainly easier to do compared to bursts (at least for most people)

hi

**Doug31** · 07-20-2013, 05:54 AM

Re: FFR Skill Rank System

I've tried doing this, and it seems a significant problem to me that you can't tell if a song is passed or not from the data. To avoid this, my program only gives points for levels that have a * so I know it's an FC, but admittedly this is a flawed system. Is there a list of the total notes, bpm, length, difficulty, etc., of all the songs somewhere? It would be very helpful in doing this. My problem is that my system only gives people points for what they're best at, so it does things like, huh? Kotarouchan AAA'd Aim? Tons and tons of points, even if a user is bad at virtually all other patterns. Even if songs had the values for stream, voltage, air, freeze, and chaos then it'd be possible to come up with something better, but we don't really have stats representing what type of files are on which songs. I'm not manually going to go type them all in. It would be possible to make a formula to accurately calculate skill but only if we had more data on the songs than is currently available.

FFR Skill Rank System

FFR Skill Rank System

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