TWG CXXXI - Game of Champions

[Charu]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

Charu - sunfan
Tokzic -> sunfan
Tokzic -> Charu
Tokzic -> sunfan
Charu -> Tokzic
FoJaR -> fiction
Tokzic -> fiction
Vendetta -> fiction
Tokzic -> Charu
sunfan -> j-rodd

Not Voted:
fiction
popadop
j-rodd

---

fiction - XX
Charu X
Tokzic - X
j-rodd - X

[Tokzic]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

that's still weird because xel's postcount said there were 4 votes on fiction and i'm the only one who switched off of him

[Charu]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

I saw he counted 4 on fiction as well. I think Middie was wrong, lol.

I mean, you're more than welcome to triple check for me!

[Charu]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

Unless I missed j-rodd voting, let me go back I guess.

[Charu]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

Yeah, he didn't vote.

[FictionJunction]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

My comments in red because I'm red

okay so

1. fiction opened with saying i'm red

yes.

2. then fiction talked about how he is a mastering of reading me and waxed poetically about the tricks to reading me, but didn't come up with anything specific about what reading me meant

I didn't draw conclusions because at the time - and even now - it's difficult to pinpoint what your position is. I think I kind of spoke to this a couple of posts ago when talking to sunfan. It's also difficult because the underlying reason why you choose to play the way you do isn't obvious now because it's been a while since we've both played. So - not knowing enough, I only commented hoping my insight would help others see your actions from another lens.


3. then i called him out for this and he committed to not making any reads on D1

Because they are largely pointless drivel.

4. after a brief argument he agreed to vote for who i said i would vote for, which was james may. he made a big thing about how the onus was on me to prove that i wasn't making a bad call.

The whole point of delegating my vote is neglecting responsibility for the kill and establishing a somewhat tangible relationship between the person who requested I vote for X and myself for others to take a look. This is what I call an anchor.

The onus is on all of us to make the 'right call' and not kill for the 'wrong reasons' even if those reason would viscerally satisfy you. The onus isn't on me to behave like you expect a green to behave. This is pretty much a staple of my TWG game regardless of role. I know this, you know this, they know this.

5. then he votes for manti immediately after saying this in a couple of posts where he agrees with jrodd about killing DBP (#345 and #346)

what's weird leading up to this is this big thing about voting for who i told him to vote for, but when it's on james may, a known wolf, he switches to manti before phase end

I didn't know James was a red but I don't blame you - this is probably what inspired this entire diatribe because it's the only tangible connection you can draw between me and a red.

6. then he goes on and opens up day 2 with this



after there were numerous posts stating manti was obviously town now, and when jrodd states that manti was town. when jrodd brings this up:



7. fiction defends his "not realizing manti was the seer"



there's a subtlety here in that he is defending the case of "before he died," but jrodd had opened the phase by voting for fiction and then stating a thing about trying to pretend that the wolves might think zenith peeked fiction wolf. to me this smacks of being acutely in tune with this accusation and trying to sideshift them or mitigate thoughts surrounding the issue after he opened with what looks like a manti-was-peeked distancing vote

ok this is too much even for me - this really hinges on whether or not you believe I noticed zenith softing as hard as he did.

if you're a wolf and you've successfully killed a zenith seer, you've done it because you noticed his hints at his peek before the night phase, so one potential way to act like you're not a part of the kill is to call his peek red. jrodd had brought up this concern and fiction ignored this and chose to respond to a different point on the issue.

I actually have to look at this more closely - not sure I remember this happening?

this looks like addressing the issue on a cursory glance, but it's a very subtle way to cherry-pick what is actually addressed.

8. then fiction "gives" his vote again after we argue once more

the most interesting part of this is that when he "gave" me his vote before on james may and made it "my responsibility" to not make a bad call, he spuriously changed it to manti before the phase ended while simultaneously agreeing with jrodd about DBP... but not voting DBP

I don't think I had yet made my 'ok I read the thread' post by then, feel free to confirm.

this looks incredibly like trying to keep your hands clean of the lynch, and if he had read zenith as seer with a manti blue, it also looks like trying to either out the seer or kill his peek on day 1 when he might be able to get away with it

so, then, what happens the second time he "gives" me his vote?

we kill a green, and he doesn't change who he is voting for. all in all that's pretty fucking curious to me. i've been trying to not let myself get overly influenced by the fact that fiction is tunneling me and also knowing that i've been completely wrong about him before, but when i re-read the thread i realized that his overall behavior is just too fucking wolfy. especially this bullshit about "proving it's not a bad call" over "proving it seems like a good call," which i ultimately decided is the sort of brain worm a wolf would say to make you question yourself.

I don't think I'm trying to make you question yourself as much as I am refusing to give you 'reads' that I don't think do anything. I'm also kinda benging your arm so you can tread between the irrational pursuit of killing me because a red inherently does X and the rational pursuit of killing me because I did something clever you uncovered.

Which you haven't.

fiction

I don't do this. I'm never doing this again. I did this because V requested it.

[Tokzic]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

found it

pop's vote currently on fiction

[Charu]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

Charu, you missed my vote on fiction.

Ah, I see! Mystery solved!

[Charu]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

Charu - sunfan
Tokzic -> sunfan
Tokzic -> Charu
Tokzic -> sunfan
Charu -> Tokzic
popadop -> fiction <----- I think it's right here, but he did vote so, lol
FoJaR -> fiction
Tokzic -> fiction
Vendetta -> fiction
Tokzic -> Charu
sunfan -> j-rodd

Not Voted:
fiction
j-rodd

---

fiction - XXX
Charu X
Tokzic - X
j-rodd - X[/QUOTE]

[FictionJunction]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

but for the sake of transparency and giving you the benefit of the doubt - the fact you requested I do this is the greenest thing you've done in the thread. Your calmer-than-usual demeanor is what strikes me as red and the thing that you're not very good at doing as a green.

Now that you know how to motivate a red or green read from me, feel free to be honest because I was honest with you

[FictionJunction]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

and when I say greenest thing you've done in the thread I really mean 'greenest thing V would do as a green' because we all know there are no such thing as archetypes!!

[FictionJunction]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

his calm demeanor though... annoying and I don't like it

[Charu]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

Err... did fiction vote for himself?

[FictionJunction]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

you happy now

[FictionJunction]

Re: TWG 131 - Game of Champions

Err... did fiction vote for himself?

no that's part of the quote - I thought about calling that out but I didn't think anyone would think that's a vote I guess I guessed wrong